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Author Topic: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass  (Read 7559 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
« on: November 04, 2024, 02:34:16 AM »
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  • So I've been invited to an Indult wedding and mass, and I'm just looking for guidance/info to help make a decision on attending/not attending.
    -I would consider the priests doubtful, as they are Novus Ordo priests, so reception of the Sacraments is a clear no.
    -The groom is a friend, so I want to do what is charitable without transgressing any Church law/teaching.
    Is there anything else I should consider, ie Church law on attending doubtful masses, active/passive participation?

    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #1 on: November 04, 2024, 02:51:22 AM »
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  • So I've been invited to an Indult wedding and mass, and I'm just looking for guidance/info to help make a decision on attending/not attending.
    -I would consider the priests doubtful, as they are Novus Ordo priests, so reception of the Sacraments is a clear no.
    -The groom is a friend, so I want to do what is charitable without transgressing any Church law/teaching.
    Is there anything else I should consider, ie Church law on attending doubtful masses, active/passive participation?
    Our priest would advise us to go but not partake in the sacraments. Weddings are joyous occasions and there is no need to provoke a possible life long bitterness from your friend who may resent you not showing up. His conversion will just have to wait


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #2 on: November 04, 2024, 04:46:41 AM »
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  • Our priest would advise us to go but not partake in the sacraments. Weddings are joyous occasions and there is no need to provoke a possible life long bitterness from your friend who may resent you not showing up. His conversion will just have to wait
    THIS ^^^

    All of my family are novus ordo or Indult.   So, we have had this question come up many times.

    We will attend their baptisms and weddings and consider ourselves as witnessing that everything was done validly in case they should ever become traditional.  We sit and watch (sometimes stand) but do not participate. 
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #3 on: November 04, 2024, 05:47:58 AM »
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  • As long as the marriage would appear to be valid, I don't see any issue in attending.  Now, if this were a non-Catholic Mass, I would say passive attendance, but since it's the Tridentine Mass, I don't see why it would have to be passive -- unless you're a dogmatic una cuм type.  Even if you think the Mass would be doubtful (depending on the priest offering it and whether he was ordained NO), I wouldn't see any issue with following along with the Mass in your Missal even ... though you obviously wouldn't go up to receive Communion if you think it's doubtful.  If you're dogmatic una cuм, then obviously you wouldn't, and then you'd only be there passively ... similar to how you'd attend an openly non-Catholic wedding.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #4 on: November 04, 2024, 05:49:48 AM »
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  • We will attend their baptisms and weddings and consider ourselves as witnessing that everything was done validly in case they should ever become traditional.  We sit and watch (sometimes stand) but do not participate.

    Yes, though I think that we are dealing with a Tridentine Mass here, not some non-Catholic Rite, unless you're dogmatic una cuм, I don't see why you couldn't "particpate" and must assist only passively.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #5 on: November 04, 2024, 08:44:16 AM »
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  • 1.  Canon law says that it's a grave sin to attend doubtful sacraments AND masses.
    2.  The indult is undoubtedly doubtful (pardon the pun).
    3.  Ergo, you should not attend either the mass or receive communion.
    4.  A doubtful mass is a much worse offense against God than a doubtful communion, being that the Mass is the greatest prayer and the offering of Christ Himself.
    5.  The Mass is infinitely more beneficial and pleasing to God than any sacrament, therefore a doubtful Mass is infinitely more displeasing to God than any sacrament.
    6.  Your consideration of being "friendly with God" is infinitely more important than any "friendship" with a human being.
    7.  The indult still condones the new mass and V2.  Even if an indult were valid (which is difficult to know), it would be as spiritually tainted as the heretical, Anglican rites (which were valid).

    Being a Traditional Catholic means making difficult choices.  Go all the way.  Don't compromise.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #6 on: November 04, 2024, 08:56:01 AM »
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  • Pax, Catholic theologians have long said that it's permissible to passively assist even at non-Catholic ceremonies, weddings and funerals in particular.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #7 on: November 04, 2024, 08:58:23 AM »
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  • Being a Traditional Catholic means making difficult choices.  Go all the way.  Don't compromise.

    Unbelievable.  For someone who has just spent inordinate amounts of time specifically recommending "compromise" where it comes to voting.  Let's compromise Catholic principles to go vote for Trump, but then passive attendance at a funeral/wedding (that Catholic theologians all agree is permitted) is an unacceptable "compromise"?

    There's no "compromise" in passive attendance.  In a situation like a wedding/funeral, nobody is construing your attendance as any endorsement of a false religion, and as long as you don't actively participate, there's no reason you can't be there ... assuming the wedding is actually valid.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2024, 09:17:57 AM »
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  • Quote
    Pax, Catholic theologians have long said that it's permissible to passively assist even at non-Catholic ceremonies, weddings and funerals in particular.
    No, that's incorrect.  

    1.  Such an "allowance" was made for persons such as politicians in order to attend such for political, govt reasons.
    2.  Such ceremonies are not simulating catholic rites and the scandal is minimal, as no one would think that a catholic attending an Anglican funeral for a diplomat was worshipping or converting to the Anglican religion.
    3.  Such an "allowance" does not apply to catholic rites, which the indult is.
    4.  Canon Law's prohibition of attending doubtful sacraments/masses overrules the above allowance.

    How can you argue that the indult is both non-catholic and at the same time catholic?  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2024, 09:26:08 AM »
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    Unbelievable.  For someone who has just spent inordinate amounts of time specifically recommending "compromise" where it comes to voting.  Let's compromise Catholic principles to go vote for Trump, but then passive attendance at a funeral/wedding (that Catholic theologians all agree is permitted) is an unacceptable "compromise"?
    False.  

    1.  Catholic theology allows one to vote for the "proportionate good". 
    2.  I've never said I was going to vote for Trump.  I'm simply arguing AGAINST the extremist position that to do so is a mortal sin.

    Quote
    There's no "compromise" in passive attendance. 
    Canon law does not define 'passive attendance'.  One is only allowed to attend NON CATHOLIC services if:

    a) there is a valid reason to be there...diplomatic, govt, etc
    b) attendance does not cause scandal 


    Quote
    In a situation like a wedding/funeral, nobody is construing your attendance as any endorsement of a false religion, and as long as you don't actively participate, there's no reason you can't be there ... assuming the wedding is actually valid.
    1.  No one has ever defined "active vs passive" participation.  This distinction makes no sense.  I can fulfill my sunday obligation by going to Mass and mediating, kneeling quietly in the pew the entire time.  I don't have to follow a missal.  I don't have to go to communion.  I don't have to pray a rosary.  I can simply quietly kneel and pay attention.


    Yet that is what most people would do at the indult, except they would call it "passive" attendance.  How does one distinguish between active and passive?  If you can't explain this, then YES, YOUR ATTENDANCE IS AN ENDORSEMENT.  Because by you being there, you are endorsing the mass.

    Why even show up if you're just going to sit in the back?  It pure human respect done out of peer pressure. 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2024, 09:27:03 AM »
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  • No, that's incorrect. 

    1.  Such an "allowance" was made for persons such as politicians in order to attend such for political, govt reasons.
    2.  Such ceremonies are not simulating catholic rites and the scandal is minimal, as no one would think that a catholic attending an Anglican funeral for a diplomat was worshipping or converting to the Anglican religion.
    3.  Such an "allowance" does not apply to catholic rites, which the indult is.
    4.  Canon Law's prohibition of attending doubtful sacraments/masses overrules the above allowance.

    How can you argue that the indult is both non-catholic and at the same time catholic? 
    You've got a good head on your shoulders fella. Too bad others let human respect get the better of them.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #11 on: November 04, 2024, 10:48:37 AM »
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  • Yes, though I think that we are dealing with a Tridentine Mass here, not some non-Catholic Rite, unless you're dogmatic una cuм, I don't see why you couldn't "particpate" and must assist only passively.
    He said it was an "Indult Mass".  Usually I have known this to mean a Latin Mass in a diosean parish by a novus ordo priest (very highly likely invalid).  

    I am not a dogmatic una cuм or non una cuм by the way.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #12 on: November 04, 2024, 11:38:10 AM »
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  • This is a wedding, not just a Mass.

    Is it just you or do you have a family as well that will be going to the wedding? I ask because the advice below is just for an individual.

    I say witness the two getting married.  Step out of the chapel for the wedding mass.  Enjoy the reception.  Don't make a big deal about it.

    At my church the vows are done before the Mass, is that how it is done in the Indult?
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #13 on: November 04, 2024, 05:11:12 PM »
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  • This is a wedding, not just a Mass.

    Is it just you or do you have a family as well that will be going to the wedding? I ask because the advice below is just for an individual.

    I say witness the two getting married.  Step out of the chapel for the wedding mass.  Enjoy the reception.  Don't make a big deal about it.

    At my church the vows are done before the Mass, is that how it is done in the Indult?
    It will be just me, but it will be at the Indult/NO church I used to attend up until a relatively short time ago, so I will know most people there, including the NO clergy.

    The vows will be done before the mass, and the mass will follow the 1962 missal.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #14 on: November 04, 2024, 06:30:34 PM »
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  • It's not human respect, dufuses.  Catholic moral theologians hold that one may attend, though not actively assist in non-Catholic worship.  There's no threat that anyone will construe your attendance at a wedding or funeral at a non-Catholic ceremony as tantatmount to your intention to convert to their religion.  You go, in the case of a funeral, to offer your condolences and pay your respects to the family of the departed, and, in the case of a wedding, to witness and congratulate the couple and family for entering into a contract (and, in the case of being at a Tridentine Mass where the couple are both baptized Catholics, also a Saacrament).

    Obviously you cannot go to a wedding that's invalid ... since your attendance there would be construed as your acceptance of something having happened there that isn't just a mutual agreement to cohabitate.

    And, in the case of a Tridentine Mass, the worship there is NOT "non-Catholic" simpliciter.  It is in fact a Catholic Rite offered by those who themselves profess to be Catholics.  If you can't tell the difference between that and going to, say, an Orthodox Liturgy, where they openly profess to be separated from the Church and in schism, then you have some issues with your thinking.  Even the dogmatics SVs, like Bishop Sanborn, hold there there's a difference there, and that is why they accept people coming over from the Conciliar Church without the abjuration of error that would usually be required of someone coming over from a formally declared schismatic body.

    Now, as to whether you can actively participate, it depends on your position about the una cuм issue, i.e. whether you commit grave sin just for that reason (I don't believe that), and your position about the validity of the Mass (depending on the priest offering it).  I hold that the Mass is of doubtful validity, but my opinion and $5 might get me a small coffee at Starbucks.  Since the Church has not issued a verdict on the matter, no poster can impose his opinion on your conscience.

    So the guy calling even a passive attendance at a Tridentine Mass (a Catholic Rite) offered by people who profess to be Catholic (and most likely have the faith, given their attachment to the Tridentine Mass) a "compromise", even though you're not actively doing anything ... whereas for him it's perfectly licit to vote for (enable the election of) a Pro Abortion Jew-Puppet Genocidal Maniac.

    :facepalm: