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Author Topic: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies  (Read 2355 times)

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Offline neto

The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« on: September 15, 2020, 12:11:14 PM »
I would like to know the following: 

Let us suppose that a the priest, when conferring a sacrament, used ONLY MATTER AND FORM (that is to say, without the other ceremonies instituted by the Church). Would the sacrament produce its TOTAL EFFICACY IN ALL ITS ASPECTS in the same way as if the established ceremonies had been used?


For example, a bishop when ordaining a priest anoints the hands of the future priest with sacred oil; he prays upon him and asks the Holy Spirit to dwell in him. Finally, the form is used for the validity of the sacrament of order, so that he becomes a priest; and even after the matter and form being conferred, others prayers are prayed.


Now, do these prayers really make a significant difference in that priest, so that something would be missing if the priest did not receive these prayers and ceremonies? An accessory grace comes from these ceremonies, for example?


Thank you.
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Offline Seraphina

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 02:20:20 PM »
II believe what you describe is valid.  A baptism is valid without the entire ceremony.  Communion may be administered outside of Holy Mass.  A person may receive Extreme Unction while dying on the battlefield.  Naturally, it is better to have the full ceremony, but circuмstances sometimes prevent that from happening.  
It would be unusual for a bishop to ordain a priest in the manner you describe, but it might be done in the case of a conditional ordination, or if it must be done quickly, as under persecution.  One wouldn’t risk a full ordination ceremony if Catholics were in danger of being immediately hauled off to prison or martyrdom.
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Offline songbird

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 04:47:54 PM »
Am I right to understand that Bishop Sanborn consecrated priest with One Hand Ordination?  If so, why not 2 hands ?
?
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Offline SimpleMan

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 06:08:25 PM »
You say "sacraments" without "solemn ceremonies".  Isn't there a degree of uncertainty whether a priest, simply reciting "This is My Body" and "This is the Chalice of My Blood", outside of Mass, is valid?  If I recall correctly, +Williamson expressed some doubt.  Would it be any more probably valid, if a priest were only to say the part of the canon that incorporates these prayers, and nothing else?

I know the 1983 CIC refers to this scenario as "nefas est", the 1917 Code forbids it (per Woywod/Smith) but the commentary does not use those words.

I think of it as kind of like going in and tinkering with computer source code --- you have no idea what else it is going to affect.  Back in the old DOS days, I would amuse myself sometimes by opening GIF and JPG code, going in and jacking it up at random, and seeing what it made the image look like.  "Chewed out little pieces" is about the best way to describe the result.
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Offline neto

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 09:11:19 PM »
Quote from: Seraphina on September 15, 2020, 02:20:20 PM
II believe what you describe is valid.  A baptism is valid without the entire ceremony.  Communion may be administered outside of Holy Mass.  A person may receive Extreme Unction while dying on the battlefield.  Naturally, it is better to have the full ceremony, but circuмstances sometimes prevent that from happening.  
It would be unusual for a bishop to ordain a priest in the manner you describe, but it might be done in the case of a conditional ordination, or if it must be done quickly, as under persecution.  One wouldn’t risk a full ordination ceremony if Catholics were in danger of being immediately hauled off to prison or martyrdom.
I know that it is valid, but I'm talking about graces received, not of validity. For instance, if a baby baptized without the cerimonies of baptism would have less graces to be a good batpized person than the baby baptized with the entire cerimony (maybe that is why some priests do the "complement of baptism" for people baptized in the Novus Ordo) ; or a priest consecrated without the anointing of the holy oils, etc.

In other words, are these cerimonies of the Church instituted just to simbolize the sacred aspect of the sacraments or do they really confer grace? (Second grace or actual grace).
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