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Author Topic: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests  (Read 9467 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2023, 10:41:20 AM »
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  • I believe that they did as a matter of course, and it was only when an NO priest became stubborn that they might relent (cf. the case of "Father" Stark that was one of the main contributors to the departure of "The Nine").


    But way back in 1983, "The (Naughty) Nine" charged the SSPX with failure to administer conditional ordinations to incoming new rite priests.


    2. Doubtful Priests
    Over the past few years, the Society has accepted the service
    of priests ordained by vernacular versions of the New Rite of
    Ordination of 1968. On November 30, 1947, Pope Pius XII issued
    his Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis, dealing with
    the matter of the Sacrament of Orders. It was his intention "to
    put an end to all controversy," as he said. He did this by, among
    other things, decreeing and determining which words in the
    form for the ordination of a priest "are essential and therefore
    requisite for validity."

    The English words of the form in the New Rite of ordination
    so differ from the ones Pius XII said were essential for validity
    that they introduce a positive doubt as to its validity. In fact the
    doubt is not negative, but positive enough even in your own
    mind, Your Grace, so as to justify the conditional ordination of
    priests ordained in the New Rite.

    And so you have in fact conditionally ordained at least two
    priests in America: Father Sullivan and Father [. . .]. Indeed, you
    even asked Rev. Philip Stark to accept conditional ordination
    and he, as you yourself told us, adamantly refused And yet, after
    his refusal, you nevertheless allowed and continue to allow him
    to work with the Society; and he is not the only doubtfully or-
    dained priest that you permit to do so he is one of many.
    Thus under the aegis of the Society, doubtful Masses are be-
    ing offered, doubtful absolutions are being given and dying
    people are being anointed with an "Extreme Unction" that may
    be invalid and of no more value than the anointing with oil done
    by a Protestant minister.

    How, one must ask before God, can the Society reject the
    doubtful sacraments of the new Church only to replace them
    with doubtful priests? How grave a sin this is! How false a pre-
    tense! Furthermore the Society in the Southwest District has be-
    gun to import to the United States priests whose theological
    training and manner of ordination are under a similar cloud.

    As Your Grace knows, this has been a source of scandal.
    The employment of such priests strikes at the heart of one of
    the reasons for the Society's existence: to provide unquestionably
    valid sacraments for the faithful for if a positive doubt exists
    as to the validity of a priest's ordination, not only are the sacra-
    ments he administers doubtful, but the faithful are put into a
    position by the Society of choosing between the doubtful sacra-
    ments of the new Church and the doubtful priests of the Society.
    From the standpoint of Catholic morality this is inadmissible.

    Source link





    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #91 on: May 27, 2023, 10:47:36 AM »
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  • The Wizard of Oz is actually an allegory for the usurpation of the American monetary system.

    Here's a docuмentary about that: https://odysee.com/@TGHeretic:7/Bill-Still_-The-Secret-of-Oz:2


    It was about "jurisdiction" too.   ;)



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #92 on: May 27, 2023, 11:11:00 AM »
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  • What needs to be addressed is that there is a strong Opus Dei influence in the Arlington Diocese.  It's usually the conservative, cassock wearing priests who know how to offer the TLM who are members. 

    It has come to my attention that two diocesan priests who fit that description recently visited the seminary in Dillwyn. One of whom I know is strongly anti-sspx. I'm sure the seminary warmly welcomed them but it begs the question of what is really going on with these relations when the bishop here is so against the Society and has even labeled them schismatic.

    The sspx priests down at the seminary are not from this area, and probably have no idea of the OD influence in this diocese.  Perhaps they have been duped by the conservative appearance and apparent orthodoxy of these priests.  But they need to understand that they will never leave the conciliar church and the novus ordo because of their false sense of obedience to the conciliar hierarchy, especially if they are members of OD. 

    You hit upon the sea serpent hiding beneath the waves.

    It makes perfect sense that Opus Dei would hold a strong presence in Arlington and DC... the seat of American secular power.

    Where the National Cathedral to the Immaculate Conception is domed both inside & out with the judaic six pointed star.



    The neo-SSPX's goal to obtain "prelature' from the jew-Pope is a threat to the Opus Dei, which holds enormous power within the schismatic church.
    Opus Dei is the only religious order with the prelature privilege.  

    Michael Voris's "Church Militant" is Opus Dei funded social media, with the goal of undermining the SSPX threat.

    But much more could
    be said... and should be said about Opus Judei.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #93 on: May 27, 2023, 11:18:41 AM »
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  • I'm sorry, but traditional Priests can't simply drop whatever they're doing for their own chapel(s) and parishioners to go visit sick or dying people who:

    1) aren't their parishioners
    2) aren't even traditional
    3) aren't in the immediate area

    and

    4) didn't personally ask for them in the first place.

    It would be great if they could visit everybody, but there are roughly 100 SSPX Priests in the United States, and the United States is a very big country.

    That might seem harsh, but that's reality. Please give your Priests a break.


    Between 2009 and 2012, I learned from direct experience that the SSPX had a discreet policy in place not to provide Sacraments to non SSPX members.

    One involved a dying fallen-away Novus ordo gentleman
    and the other a dying Hispanic lady who was new to Catholic Tradition.

    In the latter case, the SSPX priest advised the Catholic lady's friend that if she had not come to the SSPX chapel before her illness, he would not be allowed by his superiors to come to the hospital to give her Last Rites.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #94 on: May 27, 2023, 10:40:23 PM »
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  • Plenus, the problem with the SSPX- and it has always persisted- is that there has never been an "official position" on any issue of importance. 
    OA, come on! You lost your credibility right there at the very start!


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #95 on: May 27, 2023, 10:48:13 PM »
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  • One professor said to me, "How are we going to convert the Novus Ordo Catholics if we say that the New Mass is a sin?"  This liberalism has always persisted in the SSPX
    You had some interesting professors during those years. Where is THAT professor, now??? Unfortunately, that is the human element in any society, but they were certainly undermining the position of the Society of which they were members. Liberals will always be there, it is a question of superiors being vigilant to weed them out before they can do too much damage. As you know, there is a litany of defections from the SSPX from the day of its establishment, to the left of Conciliarism and to the right of Sedevacantism. Which way did you go again???!!!!

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #96 on: May 27, 2023, 11:07:15 PM »
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  • You seem to have conflated separate issues, the new rites of the sacraments/Mass with the Sede issue. 
    You replied to Meg that the issue of re-ordaining priests had nothing to do with Sedevacantism, when she had stated that it was never the policy of ABL and the SSPX to automatically re-ordain priests from the Conciliar Church, and you went on to say it was an issue of doubtful form. Now is it not true, that this is the Sedevacantist position, not Archbishop Lefebvre's position? Of course! That is the point! It is not a question of the form for ABL and the SSPX, but for Sedevacantists it is, as can clearly be seen by what Incred has subsequently posted. Meg was simply expressing our collective frustrations at having our SSPX/Resistance discussions compounded by Sedevacantist theology. 

    Offline trento

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #97 on: May 27, 2023, 11:14:09 PM »
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  • Between 2009 and 2012, I learned from direct experience that the SSPX had a discreet policy in place not to provide Sacraments to non SSPX members.

    One involved a dying fallen-away Novus ordo gentleman
    and the other a dying Hispanic lady who was new to Catholic Tradition.

    In the latter case, the SSPX priest advised the Catholic lady's friend that if she had not come to the SSPX chapel before her illness, he would not be allowed by his superiors to come to the hospital to give her Last Rites.


    Firstly, there is no such thing as lay SSPX or non-SSPX members, unless one is of the Third Order. Secondly, I have personal experience where SSPX priests will go if the sick person himself explicitly requests for a Traditional priest, and not due to the overexaggerated wishes of the sick person's Traditional relatives hoping that sick person will somehow convert to Tradition at his deathbed. I have even first hand knowledge of someone wanting SSPX priests to celebrate the Funeral Mass of their non-Traditional relatives! What is the point in that if the dead person was never in favor of Tradition during his life? You may as well just ask for a mass for the dead said for that particular soul.



    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #98 on: May 27, 2023, 11:15:53 PM »
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  • Ultimately, the problem with the new-sspx is that it did not update its philosophy on new-rome once all the old, valid, novus ordo priests died.  Now that new-rome is 99% filled with new-rite bishops/priests, the "positive doubt" about such is VERY GREAT.  I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

    PlenusV, you're making an argument based on decades-old data.  This is why it's faulty.
    No, I'm arguing a principle, which does not change with data.
    But I agree with you entirely, that over time, the doubts as to validity increase, as clearly expressed in Archbishop Lefebvre's letter to Mr Wilson. Eventually there will be no priests left in the Conciliar Church who were not ordained by newrite doubtful bishops. The presumption must be against validity now more than ever.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #99 on: May 27, 2023, 11:21:31 PM »
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  • I have personal experience where SSPX priests will go if the sick person himself explicitly requests for a Traditional priest, and not due to the overexaggerated wishes of the sick person's Traditional relatives hoping that sick person will somehow convert to Tradition at his deathbed. 
    Yes, I too. Most SSPX priests I know will give the traditional certainly-valid sacraments to ANY Catholic who asks for them, especially in extremis. What a sad experience Incredulous relates, and God help such priests who have truly lost the understanding of their vocation.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #100 on: May 29, 2023, 03:00:13 PM »
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  • Quote
    No, I'm arguing a principle, which does not change with data.
    :confused:  What principle are you referring to?  You said, a page ago, that the "form" of the new rite isn't doubtful.  If you truly believe this, then how can you say the below, where you agree that "doubts as to validity increase" as time goes on.  :confused:  I'm totally confused.


    Quote
    But I agree with you entirely, that over time, the doubts as to validity increase, as clearly expressed in Archbishop Lefebvre's letter to Mr Wilson. Eventually there will be no priests left in the Conciliar Church who were not ordained by newrite doubtful bishops. The presumption must be against validity now more than ever.
    Or are you saying that the main issue is the new rite consecrations?  If so, I agree.  But we can't minimize the issue with new-rite ordinations, just because the new-rite consecrations are MORE problematic.  Both are problematic.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #101 on: May 29, 2023, 03:24:12 PM »
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  • Was this a younger-generation priest, ordained, say within the last 15 years or so?  I've noticed a disgraceful lack of zeal for souls among many of them.  They are more concerned about organizing activities than in saving souls.

    Mr. G can tell you about a notorious instance in which a Resistance man in St. Mary's was in a critical car accident, and the family called the priory.  I won't say more than that, because I don't recall the exact sequence of events which followed.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #102 on: May 29, 2023, 03:37:00 PM »
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  • If there is an SSPX policy by which their priests are giving the midddle finger to the families of dying Catholics, that is disgraceful (and a most grievous mortal sin directly repugnant to the priestly state).

    Are you fricking kidding me???

    :facepalm:

    A priest has a duty in both justice and charity to go to the aid of those in extreme physical and/or spiritual necessity, regardless of the disposition of the dying or their family, or what parish they go to.

    It sounds to me like this policy is saying:

    "Please don't waste our time.  We have a lot of shit to do (although probably nothing to do when you call).  But nevertheless, we are really delicate and precious, and we are sooooooooo overworked, that all these dying people are a real drag.  Seriously, dude, can't you just go to the fαɢɢօt priest down the road?  We thank you for understanding, and please be sure to inconvenience yourself for the next academy work day we schedyule for you.  By the way, we also do online confession sign-up now, so we won't be inconvenienced in that regard either."

    All that aside, I have had SSPX priests come to attempt conversion of my agnostic grandfather (and it will redound to that priest's glory that he attempted to convert him in his last moments, and may have even been successful).  Another priest came for my grandmother despite the objections of jurisdiction made by the local novus ordo priest over her.  The SSPX priest expressed some concerns about that, but when I said I didn't give a shit what the novus ordo priest said, he came and gave the rites.

    So this policy flies in the face of my personal experience, and yet on paper it looks absolutely attrocious and unpriestly (and the horror stories from St. Mary's and elsewhere show that not everyone had as good luck with SSPX priests ministering to non-SSPXers as I did).

    A priest (spiritual father) should be every bit as exhausted at the end of a day, as a biological father caring for his family is.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #103 on: May 29, 2023, 03:43:00 PM »
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  • I can also see the opposite side, where some good, Trad faithful want to impose a Trad priest upon their dying loved ones, even though the extended family (and the dying person) wants nothing to do with Tradition.  This is simply a waste of time, but the grieved Trad wants to "try whatever they can" (emotionally speaking) and is hoping for a miraculous conversion, even when all the signs point to the dying person being obstinate.

    Such cases are heartbreaking but also common.  I'm sure the sspx has to use this policy to filter out such cases.  It's sad but necessary.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #104 on: May 29, 2023, 03:53:25 PM »
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  • I can also see the opposite side, where some good, Trad faithful want to impose a Trad priest upon their dying loved ones, even though the extended family (and the dying person) wants nothing to do with Tradition.  This is simply a waste of time, but the grieved Trad wants to "try whatever they can" (emotionally speaking) and is hoping for a miraculous conversion, even when all the signs point to the dying person being obstinate.

    Such cases are heartbreaking but also common.  I'm sure the sspx has to use this policy to filter out such cases.  It's sad but necessary.

    A man may spend his entire life warring with God, but in his final moments, who knows what changes grace may work in a soul?  

    You gotta' take the chance with everyone, whether they say, "I want nothing to do with a priest" or not.

    Even Voltaire wanted to convert in the end.  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."