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Author Topic: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration  (Read 1257 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
« on: June 02, 2023, 01:03:45 AM »
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  • This quote of ElwinRansom1970 from this thread: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/rci-sgg/msg886050/#msg886050 brought to me the idea of a thread on the topic of the nature of episcopal consecration.


    Quote from: ElwinRansom1970
    Don't ever tell an Eastern bishop that he "receives" jurisdiction as something outside his episcopal dignity. Byzantine ecclesiology does not admit subordination to the Papacy, but rather communion with Peter. Their theology posits that they hold jurisdiction directly from Christ through episcopal ordination. They are not Romans like us, and do not think or behave like us. Same Faith; different theologies.


    Does it really mater what the Eastern churches think if many of them went into schism and even reunited after having fallen? Also, how was it that Rome saw that the sanctifying aspect is essential to consecration of a bishop, whereas jurisdiction is potential but needs to be given by canonical mission, whether by implicit or explicit approval of the Roman Pontiff?

    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #1 on: June 02, 2023, 02:06:30 AM »
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  • Great topic. 

    It doesn't matter what the easterners think, not so much because they are in schism, but because their theology is generally useless. They have a very developed doctrine in the areas of asceticism and mysticism, but since they never enjoyed a Scholastic period their positive theology is pretty lame.

    The non-sacramentality of episcopal consecration was the supposition of theologians for more or less the first millennium of the Church. 



    Online AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #2 on: June 02, 2023, 07:20:16 AM »
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  • According to the Catechism of the Council of Trent and Saint Thomas' Summa the three Major Orders are Subdeacon, Deacon and Priest. 

    Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal and Pope are parts of the hierarchy of the priesthood.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #3 on: June 02, 2023, 07:33:40 AM »
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  • Great topic.

    It doesn't matter what the easterners think, not so much because they are in schism, but because their theology is generally useless. They have a very developed doctrine in the areas of asceticism and mysticism, but since they never enjoyed a Scholastic period their positive theology is pretty lame.

    The non-sacramentality of episcopal consecration was the supposition of theologians for more or less the first millennium of the Church.

    I think that this is a gross exaggeration.  If you think that Eastern Rite priests, bishops, theologians, etc. do not study St. Thomas and are unacquainted with scholasticism, you'd be mistaken.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #4 on: June 02, 2023, 07:38:02 AM »
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  • Even among Western theologians, there is an opinion that bishops receive jurisdiction directly from Christ rather than through the Pope ... even if it's the less common opinion ... not that appointment by the pope (at least tacitly for the Eastern Rites) is not a requirement.  So, the thinking is similar to that about the Pope.  Church/Cardinals/electors select or elect the Pope, but Christ actually confers the authority or jurisdiction.  In the case of bishops, the Pope appoints the Bishop to his diocese, etc., but then Christ confers the jurisdiction directly to him.

    As for jurisdiction being distinct from the Orders themselves, for long periods of time the two were never separated.  It wasn't until the consecration of so-called "Chorbishops" or, basically, auxiliary bishops, that you had bishops without jurisdiction in the Church.  In most of the Byzantine-family Eastern Rites, Chorbishops were eventually banned.  Really, one of the biggest reasons to have Chorbishops would be to assist with Confirmations, and in the East priests can confer the Sacrament of Confirmation.  Maronites, Melkites, and others continue to have Chorbishops, who are generally permitted to confer Minor Orders but forbidden (by law) to ordain priests (though ordinations to the priesthood by them would be valid though illicit), but you don't see them on the Byzantine Eastern Rites.

    Even the etymology of "episcopus", meaning "overseer", implies the bishop being in charge of something, generally of priests and a diocese.  Some argue that there's a certain amount of authority inherent in the Holy Order itself even for bishops who lack appointment to a diocese or actual jurisdiction.


    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #5 on: June 02, 2023, 07:45:43 AM »
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  • I think that this is a gross exaggeration.  If you think that Eastern Rite priests, bishops, theologians, etc. do not study St. Thomas and are unacquainted with scholasticism, you'd be mistaken.
    They might be able to accuse us likewise, but it is as though they rivet on certain things, and run them entirely into the ground. 

    The Trinity is one example.  They got all agitated over filioque, something about it not translating well into Greek, and they go on and on about essences, energies, processions, and so on, which makes me wonder which one of us is, as they say, "beholding the mystery" --- sounds more like this time, we're the ones who do that without trying to explain it to death. 

    Fasting is another thing.  They have this intricate system of fasts, abstaining from this or that, fish, wine, olive oil, and so on, it encompasses a huge part of the year, and it seems as though they make fasting almost an end in itself.  

    They have an almost Protestant-like concept of headship and authority.  Each bishop is like his own little pope within his diocese, with a nominal "ecuмenical patriarchate" in Constantinople (but not all Orthodox are "under" him), and Christ is the "head of the Church".

    It's a pretty bizarre mutation of Catholicism.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #6 on: June 02, 2023, 08:08:24 AM »
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  • Great thread!

    If you go to Alzog's Manual of Universal Church History (free online here: https://archive.org/details/manualofuniversa01alzouoft/mode/2up ), he discusses how the Eastern and Western theological traditions arose from different emphases in the theological schools from the earliest centuries:

    p.260: "There existed a wide distinction between the two methods of treating theology, followed respectively between the East and the West.  The schools of the former preferred the speculative and theoretical branch of theological science, and labored to bring it into harmony with, and strengthen it by, the teachings of philosophy, while those of the latter seemed more inclined to develop the science in its practical bearing, and to bring out the legitimate consequences of traditional Chriatianity.  The former tendency was especially prominent in Alexandria."

    He then goes on to discuss the catechetical schools of Alexandria, particularly those of Clement and Origin, so we are speaking of divergent theological methods/schools/emphases already manifest back in the late 2nd and early 3rd centuries.

    On p.387, Alzog (discussing the Arian crisis) notes that, "While the Greeks, in more fully developing the relations of the Holy Ghost to the Father and the Son, steadily adhered to the wording of the Symbol of Constantinople, and, dreading that the Holy Ghost might gradually be made subordinate to the other two Persons, used the formula The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father through the Son; the Doctors of the Western Church, such as Hilary, Ambrose, and Augustine, seaized with firmer grasp, and obtained a more steady view, and gained a deeper knowledge of the economy of the Triune God, and of the relations of the three Divine Persons.  These taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son.  The addition of 'Filioque' in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Formula of faith was introduced by way of explanation at the Synod of Toledo (A.D. 589), and is also found in the Symbolum Athanasianum.  This addition was the origin and occasion of most delicate points of difference between the Latin and Greek Churches."

    It was these subtle differences in emphases, later evolving into subtle theological differences, which, gradually becomming evermore developed, would result in the schism.  Obviously, these differences grew/spread into other areas of theology, such as that ddiscussed in this thread.  The point of my post is only to show how far back -almost to the immediate post-Apostolic era- these divergences between East and West (and even within East and West) go.

    PS: Alzog's is my favorite 2-volume manual of eccclesiastical history, and I highly recommend it.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #7 on: June 02, 2023, 08:25:23 AM »
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  • Even among Western theologians, there is an opinion that bishops receive jurisdiction directly from Christ rather than through the Pope ... even if it's the less common opinion ... not that appointment by the pope (at least tacitly for the Eastern Rites) is not a requirement.  So, the thinking is similar to that about the Pope.  Church/Cardinals/electors select or elect the Pope, but Christ actually confers the authority or jurisdiction.  In the case of bishops, the Pope appoints the Bishop to his diocese, etc., but then Christ confers the jurisdiction directly to him.

    As for jurisdiction being distinct from the Orders themselves, for long periods of time the two were never separated.  It wasn't until the consecration of so-called "Chorbishops" or, basically, auxiliary bishops, that you had bishops without jurisdiction in the Church.  In most of the Byzantine-family Eastern Rites, Chorbishops were eventually banned.  Really, one of the biggest reasons to have Chorbishops would be to assist with Confirmations, and in the East priests can confer the Sacrament of Confirmation.  Maronites, Melkites, and others continue to have Chorbishops, who are generally permitted to confer Minor Orders but forbidden (by law) to ordain priests (though ordinations to the priesthood by them would be valid though illicit), but you don't see them on the Byzantine Eastern Rites.

    Even the etymology of "episcopus", meaning "overseer", implies the bishop being in charge of something, generally of priests and a diocese.  Some argue that there's a certain amount of authority inherent in the Holy Order itself even for bishops who lack appointment to a diocese or actual jurisdiction.

    You may be onto something here.  If you stop and break it down, without adding the fillip of jurisdiction, and whether a bishop has it or not, all you have is a priest who can confer all seven sacraments, whereas a priest-not-a-bishop ordinarily confers five (Baptism, Penance, Eucharist, Extreme Unction, and he does not really "confer" Matrimony, he only witnesses it, but you get the idea), and extraordinarily confers one (Confirmation).  That leaves only Holy Orders, and Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma sets forth an argument that a priest can validly confer these as well, albeit with papal mandate:




    So what, then, is the essence of being a bishop, if it's not the ability to confer all seven sacraments?  Jurisdiction?  Authority?   The ability to consecrate other bishops?  And is any of that something sacramental in itself?

    Put another way, if every bishop on the face of the earth dropped dead today, could the Church continue with only priests conferring all seven sacraments, including the ordination of other priests?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #8 on: June 02, 2023, 08:41:04 AM »
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  • Put another way, if every bishop on the face of the earth dropped dead today, could the Church continue with only priests conferring all seven sacraments, including the ordination of other priests?

    Of course, this is hypothetical, as I don't believe that God would ever allow all bishops to die out.  But, as you see in Ott, it's somewhat debated.  From Ott's reference, however, could there be something missing, namely, that the Abbots in question also happened to have been consecrated bishops?  We'd probably need to examine the Rite of installing an Abbot at the time, as it may have entailed at the same time a consecration.  Abbots were considered to have some degree of jurisdiction within their monastery, and it would have been simple enough to confer episcopal consecration on any of the Abbots granted this privilege.  So I'm not sure that we aren't missing a piece of the puzzle there.

    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #9 on: June 02, 2023, 08:50:04 AM »
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  • Great thread!

    If you go to Alzog's Manual of Universal Church History (free online here: https://archive.org/details/manualofuniversa01alzouoft/mode/2up ), he discusses how the Eastern and Western theological traditions arose from different emphases in the theological schools from the earliest centuries:

    p.260: "There existed a wide distinction between the two methods of treating theology, followed respectively between the East and the West.  The schools of the former preferred the speculative and theoretical branch of theological science, and labored to bring it into harmony with, and strengthen it by, the teachings of philosophy, while those of the latter seemed more inclined to develop the science in its practical bearing, and to bring out the legitimate consequences of traditional Chriatianity.  The former tendency was especially prominent in Alexandria."

    He then goes on to discuss the catechetical schools of Alexandria, particularly those of Clement and Origin, so we are speaking of divergent theological methods/schools/emphases already manifest back in the late 2nd and early 3rd centuries.

    On p.387, Alzog (discussing the Arian crisis) notes that, "While the Greeks, in more fully developing the relations of the Holy Ghost to the Father and the Son, steadily adhered to the wording of the Symbol of Constantinople, and, dreading that the Holy Ghost might gradually be made subordinate to the other two Persons, used the formula The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father through the Son; the Doctors of the Western Church, such as Hilary, Ambrose, and Augustine, seaized with firmer grasp, and obtained a more steady view, and gained a deeper knowledge of the economy of the Triune God, and of the relations of the three Divine Persons.  These taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son.  The addition of 'Filioque' in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Formula of faith was introduced by way of explanation at the Synod of Toledo (A.D. 589), and is also found in the Symbolum Athanasianum.  This addition was the origin and occasion of most delicate points of difference between the Latin and Greek Churches."

    It was these subtle differences in emphases, later evolving into subtle theological differences, which, gradually becomming evermore developed, would result in the schism.  Obviously, these differences grew/spread into other areas of theology, such as that ddiscussed in this thread.  The point of my post is only to show how far back -almost to the immediate post-Apostolic era- these divergences between East and West (and even within East and West) go.

    PS: Alzog's is my favorite 2-volume manual of eccclesiastical history, and I highly recommend it.

    WRT the Trinity, this whole essences and energies thing is too much mumbo-jumbo for me, but the Orthodox insistence upon sine filioque sounds to my relatively ignorant ear, that God the Father is "God 1.0", God the Son is "God 2.0", and the God the Holy Ghost is "God 2.1", like there is a "Senior God" and two "Junior Gods".  I know that's a crude way of putting it, but it's the best I can do, and I realize as well that this would get shoes thrown at me in any Orthodox church in the world.  (They'd probably cut me off on the pierogi, the spanakopita, and the baklava as well.)

    OTOH, filioque, again, to my limited lights, sounds more like "per Filium", that the Son proceeds from the Father, and that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father through the Son, again, in a way we do not (and cannot) fully understand.  To use another analogy from the East, think of Russian matryoshka nesting dolls as well.  (Yesterday in our homeschool algebra class, I used the same nesting-doll analogy to illustrate how the greatest common factor of x4, x3, and x2 is x2, in that x3 and x4 all contain x2, baby, mama, and grandma.  Once I phrased it that way, my son picked it right up.)

    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: The Sacramentality of Episcopal Consecration
    « Reply #10 on: June 02, 2023, 06:07:48 PM »
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  • Of course, this is hypothetical, as I don't believe that God would ever allow all bishops to die out.  But, as you see in Ott, it's somewhat debated.  From Ott's reference, however, could there be something missing, namely, that the Abbots in question also happened to have been consecrated bishops?  We'd probably need to examine the Rite of installing an Abbot at the time, as it may have entailed at the same time a consecration.  Abbots were considered to have some degree of jurisdiction within their monastery, and it would have been simple enough to confer episcopal consecration on any of the Abbots granted this privilege.  So I'm not sure that we aren't missing a piece of the puzzle there.
    You believe that god could allow bishops to die out but you believe that God wouldn't allow properly catholic hierarchs to die out.  Wut?