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Author Topic: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant  (Read 50958 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2025, 05:32:44 PM »
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  • Well, that's not very charitable, to say the least!
    What gives you more of a right to speak on this matter than Ladislaus???!!!
    Rather, what gives anyone the right to elevate his opinion above the authority of the Church, everyone from St Pius X to Archbishop Lefebvre and everyone in between and all the great liturgists like Dom Gueranger and Dr Fortesque? Some layman understands modernism but they do not? St Pius X directs the whole Church to follow this discipline, but I say it is modernism! It beggars belief that you would defend such an attitude of defiance of Church authority... to say the least!

    But you are right, I could have said it more charitably...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #46 on: January 15, 2025, 05:39:07 PM »
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  • I have always disliked and rejected congregational singing and the dialogue Mass.

    Lately I have acquired Dr. Carol Byrne's book Born of Revolution Vol I.

    When you read it you'll see the extensive research, wisdom and common sense and what Pope Saint Pius X actually wrote/said and not what some second person, even if that was one speaking for him, said/interpreted he said.

    Below is a very brief sampling.

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f077_Dialogue_5.htm
    Dr Byrne is clearly wrong in asserting that Pope St Pius X did not want congregational singing, that is the very purpose of this thread and all the evidence is there for anyone who wants to form an impartial judgement. This is nothing to do with our own personal likes and dislikes.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #47 on: January 15, 2025, 07:17:13 PM »
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  • Below is an excerpt from Archbishop Lefebvre's conference to the American seminarians in 1983. It clearly applies to this matter of Church discipline and answers objections made by some on this thread. The conference was given by the Archbishop in English:

    What is the first principle to know what we must do in this
    circuмstance, in this crisis in the Church? What is my principle?
    The principle of the Church is the principle of St.1 Thomas Aquinas.
    It is not my choice ; its not my favor ; its not my personal desire . .

    I am nothing... I merely follow the doctrine of the Church. . .and this
    doctrine is expounded by St. Thomas Aquinas... So what does St. Thomas
    Aquinas say about the authority in the Church? When can we refuse
    something from the authority of the Church? PRINCIPLE - Only when
    the Faith is in question. Only in this easel Not in other cases. .

    Only when the Faith is in question. . .and that is found in the Summa
    Theological II II Q.33 a.4, ad 2m:

    St. Thomas' answer is that we cannot resist to the
    authority; we must obey; "Sciendum tamen est quod ubi
    immineret periculum fidei." Periculum fidei . i.e., the
    danger to our faith. .. "etiam publice essent praelate a
    subditis arguendi", i.e., the subject can be opposed to
    the authority if the Faith is in question ("periculum fidei" )»
    "Unde et Paulus, qui erat subditus Petro, propter imminens
    periculum scandali circa fidem, Petrum publice arguit," i.e.
    St. Paul opposed St. Peter because it was a danger for
    the Faith (cf. Galatians 2ill)."

    That is the principle (of St. Thomas), and I cannot harbor
    another motive to resist the Pope.. .it is very serious to be opposed
    to the Pope, and to the Church. It is very serious , and if we think
    that we must do that, we must do it (resist the Holy Father) only
    to preserve our Faith, and not for any other motive.




    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #48 on: January 15, 2025, 08:02:27 PM »
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  • I guess my first thought was, “If congregational singing was so traditional, then why did the people need to be told they should be doing it?”

    It reminded me of St. Pius X’s exhortation to receive daily communion: It might be a good thing for some, but it definitely wasn’t traditional.

    I would respond that nevertheless, God wants it, and that we need to get with the times.

    If Tradition meant nothing ever changed, even in response to heresies, the needs of the world, etc. then the Church wouldn't need a pope or living authority of any kind. And, the Church would never change. But the Church did change, during the first 1950 years of Her existence.
    Not revolutionary (as at Vatican II, the "French Revolution in the Church") but organically. The idea that the Church can't change at all is an error. *God* doesn't change. The world does change, and men do change.

    God doesn't change, but we do. So various devotions have arisen (which didn't exist before) such as the Sacred Heart devotion. The existence of that devotion -- started by God -- was a change.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #49 on: January 15, 2025, 08:10:01 PM »
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  • Wait a minute, then why do you elevate your opinions above those of Pope Francis Your Holy Father the Vicar of Christ on earth, the College of Cardinals the Princes of the Church, and all the bishops of the world who have Ordinary Jurisdiction and are Successor of the Apostles?

    Doesn't that "beggar belief" as an "attitude of defiance of Church authority...to say the least"?

    You're an idiot.

    It's a basic tenet of Tradition that the pope (or Francis Bergoglio, depending on your opinion on the "pope question") is going astray and needs to be resisted to the face at best, ignored, or even condemned and/or rejected at worst.
    Your argument is neither here nor there.
    It seems to be typical sedevacantist prattle, trying to shame/force/cajole other Trads into embracing your sedevacantist opinion.

    Your argument is false equivalency fallacy for starters.

    No, rejecting countless solid popes, theologians, and founders of religious orders is NOT the same thing as rejecting modernists. But like I said -- that should be common sense. As you seem to be confused by the difference, I can only conclude your mind isn't strong enough to see the difference. Hence my opening salvo.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #50 on: January 15, 2025, 08:46:21 PM »
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  • Wait a minute, then why do you elevate your opinions above those of Pope Francis Your Holy Father the Vicar of Christ on earth, the College of Cardinals the Princes of the Church, and all the bishops of the world who have Ordinary Jurisdiction and are Successor of the Apostles?

    Doesn't that "beggar belief" as an "attitude of defiance of Church authority...to say the least"?
    Did you read the post immediately above your comments?

    You would have to hold that Pope St Pius X's promotion of congregational singing was a danger to the faith for this reply of yours to make any sense. Do you believe that? I don't think so. You are not even following the thread. You just use every opportunity to promote your sedevacantist beliefs whether they are relevant or not.

    None of those down votes come from me by the way...

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #51 on: January 15, 2025, 08:59:54 PM »
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  •  You are not even following the thread. You just use every opportunity to promote your sedevacantist beliefs whether they are relevant or not.

    Agreed. Because the Pope question, to Johannes, is the most important aspect of our Catholic Faith. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #52 on: January 15, 2025, 09:12:08 PM »
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  • If you are out in the congregation and know the music, why not sing? 

    I’m sure the Lord is smiling and pleased with the person who sings off key compared to a choir member who is well trained but not in a state of grace. 

    I have sang in many choirs since I was a child.  I have seen things. 

    Well said. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #53 on: January 16, 2025, 02:19:52 PM »
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  • If you are out in the congregation and know the music, why not sing? 

    I’m sure the Lord is smiling and pleased with the person who sings off key compared to a choir member who is well trained but not in a state of grace. 

    I have sang in many choirs since I was a child.  I have seen things. 

    So you should start singing even if no one else in the congregation is singing?  ... and create even more of a distraction than if you were just singing off-key (with butchered Latin) very loudly, in someone's ear?

    So, this attitude of somehow the Lord being pleased by you exercising your vocal chords (even if you're ruining the dignity of the Mass, etc.) ... is actually contrary to what St. Pius X stated, that you should rather have a Low Mass than to do a High Mass BADLY.  If I were in a congregation and no one else in the congregation was singing, I would most certainly NOT just sing because I "know the music".  But perhaps you left that qualification unsaid.  So I'll assume you meant in a situation where most of the congregation were singing already.  But, even then, no, it's not OK to just belt out cacophonous nonsense (buthered Latin).

    I think the entire presumption and premise of what St. Pius X said was that it should be done well.  That's why he mentioned having instructors go around helping the laity do it correctly.  Of course, it's not just necessarily a question of training, as some individuals are simply tone-def, and teaching the correct pronunciation of Latin might be a challenge.  For St. Pius X, Italian isn't THAT radically different from Latin (at least in terms of pronunciation) that it would present a problem, and, as I said earlier, Italians just seem to genetically be able to sing, even before they learn how to walk.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #54 on: January 16, 2025, 02:33:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    I’m sure the Lord is smiling and pleased with the person who sings off key
    If someone KNOWS they can't sing, they shouldn't sing.  Singing in church is an act of the liturgy; it's a prayer.  Bad singing/off-key is a distraction and takes away from the prayerful-aspect of the music.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #55 on: January 16, 2025, 02:48:21 PM »
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  • If someone KNOWS they can't sing, they shouldn't sing.  Singing in church is an act of the liturgy; it's a prayer.  Bad singing/off-key is a distraction and takes away from the prayerful-aspect of the music.

    You quoted only half the sentence that Viva wrote. You left out the part where she compared the person who sings off-key with someone who sings well but is not in a state of grace. She also said that she's been in many choirs and seen things. I've been in choirs too and seen things too....those in the choir who are not living an honest Catholic life.....far from it. But maybe all that matters is that they sing well, so as to not offend those around them.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #56 on: January 16, 2025, 03:21:52 PM »
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  • Quote
    You quoted only half the sentence that Viva wrote. You left out the part where she compared the person who sings off-key with someone who sings well but is not in a state of grace.
    I left it off, because her comment was stupid. 
    God is more pleased at a dog than a person who is in mortal sin.  Should we invite all kinds of animals into church because of this false comparison?  Certainly not.

    Quote
    She also said that she's been in many choirs and seen things. I've been in choirs too and seen things too....those in the choir who are not living an honest Catholic life.....far from it.
    Who cares?  Their job is to sing.  As long as their situation is not openly scandalous, their state of soul is none of your business.

    If you and Viva were focused on singing properly in the choir, and also attending mass, you wouldn't have time to "see things" or to critique others.

    Quote
    But maybe all that matters is that they sing well, so as not to offend those around them.
    Yes, their job is to sing well.  End of story.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #57 on: January 16, 2025, 03:25:05 PM »
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  • For St. Pius X, Italian isn't THAT radically different from Latin (at least in terms of pronunciation) that it would present a problem, and, as I said earlier, Italians just seem to genetically be able to sing, even before they learn how to walk.

    When I was studying Latin pronuntiation, the source that I found said that Ecclesial Latin should be pronounced using the Italian accent of Rome. So, Italians don't learn to learn to pronounce Latin at all. They already know it. Of course, this is not considering the local dialects, some of which are quite a bit different from standart Italian.