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Author Topic: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant  (Read 51030 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

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Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2025, 10:10:09 PM »
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  • We all have different temperaments, different sensibilities, different preferences...

    However, Pope St Pius X was not talking to a particular people but to the whole Church: "Our present Instruction, to which, as to a juridical code of sacred music, We will with the fullness of Our Apostolic Authority that the force of law be given, and We do by Our present handwriting impose its scrupulous observance on all". Subsequent Popes, before the Vatican II revolution, continued in the same vein. We are not free to reject such disciplinary measures unless they are a danger to the Faith.

    Congregational singing is a trademark of Catholics. "He who sings prays twice", says St Augustine.

    History is a witness to the fact that a great number of pagans converted and became civilized due to the singing of liturgical chants in the old basilicas, where the bishop, the clergy and the faithful sang alternately the divine praises. In these churches, the opponents of the Catholic Faith learned to know what the dogma of the Communion of Saints meant. The Emperor Valens, for instance, was overcome and fainted at the sight of the majesty wherewith St. Basil celebrated the divine mysteries; the heretics of Milan blamed St. Ambrose that the crowds were fascinated by the liturgical chants, and the same chants moved Augustine to adhere to faith in Christ. Later on in the Middle Ages, almost the whole town would form an enormous singing choir at religious events. The craftsmen, architects, sculptors and even scholars at this period drew their knowledge of things theological from the liturgy, and up till today their inspiration is marked out in their monuments (Pius XI, Divini Cultus, December 20, 1928).

    Here is some more evidence of the traditional practice from Fortesque's The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (1912):

    "In the Middle Ages it [the Creed] was commonly sung, not by the choir, but by all the people... The excellent custom that all the people should sing at least the creed has lasted in parts of France and Germany and is now being revived. Another mediaeval practice was that while the choir sang the creed the people sang 'Kyrie eleison'."

    Interesting bits about congregational singing in the Middle Ages and before. I did not know about that.

    He was surely talking to the whole Church and I was never meant to disobey the Holy Pope. I was merely saying the he might have thought that it would work for the whole Church based on his pastoral experience, which was very rich and decades long, but limited to a certain culture.

    It is very difficult to have a grounded opinion when we are so far removed from the circuмstances on which these directives were made.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #31 on: January 13, 2025, 10:18:59 PM »
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  • Sure, lots of references taken out of context, including the alternating singing, which almost always refers to singing the Psalms and not the Mass per se.  As I said, little bits of information are taken (usually out of context) by those with an agenda and woven together into a narrative.  Just be careful taking the "findings" of various scholars as fact, simply because they take some quote from a Father or the "Middle Ages" out of context.  I see this nonsense being done dishonestly ALL THE TIME.  I myself require seeing the full context before drawing a conclusion, because it's easy to be deceived by people who have an agenda.

    We need to be clear about WHAT people are singing and in what context and when, etc. ... before making some claim that there's some categorical God-given mandate for singing.

    In fact, various Antiquarianists also try to make these same types of claims about Communion in the Hand where they make assertions that it was widespread in the "early Church" based on a combination of flimsy evidence, assumptions, and an agenda.

    And of course, over time, the Holy Ghost in some areas may have improved the Church's discipline, as St. Thomas points out and so does Pius XII in Mediator Dei, where the Pope explains that just because something is found in some allegedly "older" text doesn't mean it's a better or somehow "more pure" discipline and that the current one used by the Church isn't better.

    There was some use of "altar girls" even in parts of the Church early on, and we know this because a Pope had to explicitly condemn the practice.  Even the "early Church" was not immune to abuses and aberrations, nor were the Middle Ages, etc. ... especially since groups were more isolated.  Heck, even today, where communication is great, I've been in various chapels where the Liturgy is rather a mess and their practices have become rather non-standard and aberrant.  What would be the case back in the day when groups were even more isolated due to poorer communication and the expensiveness of written books.

    But some "scholar" could find some isolated reference to an altar girl in use somewhere ... where it could have been an aberration ... and then extrapolate from that (based on their wishful thinking) that this was a widespread practice and somehow approved of by the Church overall in antiquity ... as I said, finding a fragment of information without full context, adding some fallacious assumptions, and then weaving it into some narrative consistent with whatever agenda they might have.

    And, by the way, I see this kind of practice commonly even outside matters related to the Faith, in just secular historical matters, where in that case the underlying agenda for presenting speculation as scholarship and theory as fact happens to be some "scholar" trying to make a name of himself.  Heck, we see it all the time in modern science also, where someone takes a tiny bit of information, formulates a theory consistent with those facts, and then presents the theory as if it were proven fact, rather than just as a possibly-viable hypothesis not inconsistent with the currently-known facts.  And, yet, most of these hypotheses-presented-as-fact end up being falsifed and invalidated, replaced by the new "truths" within a very short period of time.  Yet people take the new one as "Gospel truth" even though it contradicts the previous one that was held with equal certainty.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #32 on: January 13, 2025, 10:39:12 PM »
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  • Sure, lots of references taken out of context, including the alternating singing, which almost always refers to singing the Psalms and not the Mass per se.  As I said, little bits of information are taken (usually out of context) by those with an agenda and woven together into a narrative.  Just be careful taking the "findings" of various scholars as fact, simply because they take some quote from a Father or the "Middle Ages" out of context.  I see this nonsense being done dishonestly ALL THE TIME.  I myself require seeing the full context before drawing a conclusion, because it's easy to be deceived by people who have an agenda.

    We need to be clear about WHAT people are singing and in what context and when, etc. ... before making some claim that there's some categorical God-given mandate for singing.

    In fact, various Antiquarianists also try to make these same types of claims about Communion in the Hand where they make assertions that it was widespread in the "early Church" based on a combination of flimsy evidence, assumptions, and an agenda.

    And of course, over time, the Holy Ghost in some areas may have improved the Church's discipline, as St. Thomas points out and so does Pius XII in Mediator Dei, where the Pope explains that just because something is found in some allegedly "older" text doesn't mean it's a better or somehow "more pure" discipline and that the current one used by the Church isn't better.

    There was some use of "altar girls" even in parts of the Church early on, and we know this because a Pope had to explicitly condemn the practice.  Even the "early Church" was not immune to abuses and aberrations, nor were the Middle Ages, etc. ... especially since groups were more isolated.  Heck, even today, where communication is great, I've been in various chapels where the Liturgy is rather a mess and their practices have become rather non-standard and aberrant.  What would be the case back in the day when groups were even more isolated due to poorer communication and the expensiveness of written books.

    But some "scholar" could find some isolated reference to an altar girl in use somewhere ... where it could have been an aberration ... and then extrapolate from that (based on their wishful thinking) that this was a widespread practice and somehow approved of by the Church overall in antiquity ... as I said, finding a fragment of information without full context, adding some fallacious assumptions, and then weaving it into some narrative consistent with whatever agenda they might have.

    And, by the way, I see this kind of practice commonly even outside matters related to the Faith, in just secular historical matters, where in that case the underlying agenda for presenting speculation as scholarship and theory as fact happens to be some "scholar" trying to make a name of himself.  Heck, we see it all the time in modern science also, where someone takes a tiny bit of information, formulates a theory consistent with those facts, and then presents the theory as if it were proven fact, rather than just as a possibly-viable hypothesis not inconsistent with the currently-known facts.  And, yet, most of these hypotheses-presented-as-fact end up being falsifed and invalidated, replaced by the new "truths" within a very short period of time.  Yet people take the new one as "Gospel truth" even though it contradicts the previous one that was held with equal certainty.
    Don't take anything in isolation, but everything together that I have posted in this thread. The only agenda we should have in these matters is that of the Church, not wanting irrefutable evidence to obey the Pope, but wanting irrefutable evidence that he did not say it or that we should not obey. Otherwise we should follow the liturgy that has been handed down to us. We need a very serious reason to go against the Pope as Archbishop Lefebvre said... a danger to the Faith. 

    I think, for those who were doubting, I have provided very compelling evidence that, as the thread title states, Pope St Pius X did want congregational singing of the Gregorian Chant. And it was not a novelty. Nor was it antiquarianism for those who understand the term as used by the Church.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #33 on: January 13, 2025, 11:41:51 PM »
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  • More evidence of early congregational singing of the Mass from Fortesque:

    SANCTUS

    This is, of course, merely the continuation of the preface. It would be quite logical if the celebrant sang it straight on himself. But the dramatic touch of letting the people fill in the choral chant of the angels, in which (as the preface says) we also wish to join, is an obvious idea, a very early one and quite universal. Clement of Rome, after quoting the text Is. vi, 3 says (or implies) that we sing these words together...

    The Liber Pontificalis ascribes the Sanctus, as sung by the people, to Pope Sixtus I (119-128). We have seen that Clement I mentions it earlier; it seems plainly to be a tradition from the very beginning in all liturgies. 

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #34 on: January 14, 2025, 12:20:33 AM »
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  • More from Fortesque:

    On the Kyrie:
    The Pope [Gregory the Great, 590-604] says further that, in distinction to the Byzantine manner, at Rome clerks sing the Kyrie and the people answer... no doubt this was the manner of singing it in the daily Masses at which the litany was left out.

    On the Agnus Dei:
    The Liber Pontificalis says that Pope Sergius I (687-701) "ordered Agnus Dei qui tollis peccata mundi miserere nobis to be sung by clergy and people at the time of the breaking of the Lord's body". It occurs however in the Gregorian Sacramentary. At first it was sung once by the clergy and people. In the XIth cent. it is sung twice. The early docuмents come to the same thing, inasmuch as it was sung once by the clergy and once by the people...




    Offline Dominique

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #35 on: January 14, 2025, 04:24:34 AM »
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  • Yes, I found it edifying to participate in the chant, especially the psalms and Divine Office at STAS, but in every other place where I found myself surrounded by congregational singing, it was an unmitigated disaster, with 3/4 of the congregation either mispronouncing or even badly butchering the Latin, and even a greater percentage unable to sing on key if their lives depended on it.  Some believed themselves to be Pavarotti reincarnated and belted stuff out an extreme high volumes (and many of these types mispronounced Latin and/or got the words wrong and/or were off key), drowning out many of the at-least-adequate singers around them.  In every case, it was headache-inducing, distracting, disedifying, and did harm to the dignity of the Mass.  Even St. Pius X stated that it would be better to have Low Mass than to have Sung Mass done BADLY, and I've never experienced it NOT done badly outside of STAS.
    My goodness!! It sounds like you're in my parish!! And we're not even in the same country! :laugh1:
    Couldn't agree more.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #36 on: January 14, 2025, 06:39:42 AM »
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  • My goodness!! It sounds like you're in my parish!! And we're not even in the same country! :laugh1:
    Couldn't agree more.

    Over the years, I've been around many parishes in different parts of the country, and in every case of either congregational singing or "dialog" Mass, it's been that way.  As I said, maybe this is more a problem in the United States than in Europe, but it's definitely a problem.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #37 on: January 14, 2025, 06:45:19 AM »
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  • More from Fortesque:

    So he says.  Few of us are interested in your pushing of this nonsense and fewer still want to hear people belting out off-key butchered Latin in our ear while attempting to assist at Mass.  There's no reason this is necessary.  There are some chapels (St. Peregrine in the Cleveland areas for instance) that have an exceptional Gregorian schola, and it's very edifying to listen to ... and it's not necessary or even a good thing physically move one's own vocal chords (vs. mentally following along with the sung prayer).  It's far better to lift your mind in prayer while listening to the well-done chant than to move one's jaw.  If you think otherwise, then you've been polluted with a Modernist perspective.  When the scholas sings, it's uplifting and edifying, and people coming in off the street experience what a Tridentine Mass SHOULD sound like.  When the congregation sing, all of that is ruined.  If I listen to the chant mentally, and it's good chant, and my mind follows along and is lifted up in prayer to God, that's far superior than my jaw moving and vocal chords being engaged while the mind is distracted from prayer by the surrounding cacophony.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #38 on: January 14, 2025, 09:10:01 AM »
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  • On the contrary, what better way to attend Holy Mass than with the very words Holy Mother Church uses? I am no newcomer, and this is certainly my preferred method to pray the Mass.

    That's not to say there are not other ways of attending Mass as you rightly suggest. I derived great profit in my younger years from reading St Leonard of Port Maurice's Hidden Treasure, Holy Mass which gives a method of assisting at Mass whereby we divide it into four parts, each dedicated to one of the four ends of the Mass/prayer i.e. adoration, thanksgiving, reparation and supplication. However, the very prayers of the Mass fulfill this same purpose, obviously.

    This is a quote taken from a 1953 pastoral letter of Bishop de Castro Mayer: "Mediator Dei insists upon union with the intentions of Christ our Lord and that of the celebrant, and leaves it entirely up to the faithful how to realize this end... All exclusivity in this matter is reproachable."

    No problem either way.  And as Ladislaus points out, those who come from a Novus Ordo enviroment just assume that the responses are to be made by the faithful in an audible voice, because that's all they know.

    I know there are different schools of thought on this, but I have no issue with "dialogue Masses", indeed, depending upon my mood at any particular Mass, I will often recite the acolytes' responses sotto voce, becoming basically an "acolyte in the pew".  It's up to the individual.

    Online Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #39 on: January 14, 2025, 09:52:19 AM »
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  • If you are out in the congregation and know the music, why not sing?  

    I’m sure the Lord is smiling and pleased with the person who sings off key compared to a choir member who is well trained but not in a state of grace.  

    I have sang in many choirs since I was a child.  I have seen things.  

    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #40 on: January 15, 2025, 12:23:25 AM »
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  • It's far better to lift your mind in prayer while listening to the well-done chant than to move one's jaw.  If you think otherwise, then you've been polluted with a Modernist perspective.
    Why am I not surprised that you would have us follow your opinion rather than the opinion and authority of Pope St Pius X? Are you even Catholic? I certainly agree with you moving your jaw less on this issue.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #41 on: January 15, 2025, 09:23:15 AM »
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  • Why am I not surprised that you would have us follow your opinion rather than the opinion and authority of Pope St Pius X? Are you even Catholic? I certainly agree with you moving your jaw less on this issue.

    You're strawmanning my statement as a contradiction of St. Pius X.  What part of the fact that it's far better to mentally / interiorly participate in the Sacred Liturgy than to simply physically participate contradicts any Catholic teaching or anything that St. Pius X said, eh?  In fact, Our Lord Himself taught exactly that when he denounced the Pharisees who were big on words (honor God "with their lips") but their hearts were far from Him.  And, if there's a conflict between the two, where a badly done congregational chant or cacophonous "Dialog" Mass that creates a distraction from a pious interior participation in the Mass, i.e. where there's a conflict between the two, then safeguarding the prayerful atmosphere at Mass and also the dignity of the Sacred Liturgy trumps the need for physical participation.  It you don't accept this obvious truth, then you're more contaminated with Modernist thinking about the Sacred Liturgy than I thought.  Even St. Pius X clearly stated that a Low Mass is far preferable to a badly-done sung Mass.  Extrapolating from that statement, a Mass chanted well by a good/talented Gregorian schola that creates an atmosphere conducive to prayer and befitting the dignity of the Sacred Liturgy far outweighs and trumps a cacophonous exercise in "[physical] congregational participation".  What part of this is false or would give you the temerity to question whether I'm "Catholic"?  This is in fact Catholic, and you're a Modernist if you don't think it is.

    Of course, the allegation that I'm not Catholic if I disagree with St. Pius X about one or another thing, mostly a matter of emphasis and practical application, than of principle ... is utterly ludicrous and absurd when your non-Catholic R&R thinks it's perfectly fine for "Catholics" to reject Ecuмenical Councils, and 60+ years of what you claim to be Catholic Magisterium, to claim that the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church have gone thoroughly corrupt ... and yet I'm questionably "Catholic" because I believe that St. Pius X may have made an error in prudential judgment?  Really, the degree of contradiction here is utterly ludicrous, and it's utterly ridiculous that you're oblivious to it.

    Ultimately with your non-Catholic R&R perspective, you make yourself the rule of faith, and so you can sit here and judge that I'm not Catholic because I disagree with a comparatively-minor issue (as stated, more one of emphasis and practical application, and with the hindsight perspective of epikeia, where we can now see clearly the extremes to which physical congregational participation can be taken) ... but you're perfectly Catholic for dumping an entire Ecuмenical Council that nearly all the world's bishops endorsed and taught, along with the approbation of the man you consider to be a legitimate pope?

    Seriously?  Are you kidding?


    :laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1: :laugh2:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #42 on: January 15, 2025, 10:24:44 AM »
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  • It's far better to lift your mind in prayer while listening to the well-done chant than to move one's jaw.  If you think otherwise, then you've been polluted with a Modernist perspective.

    So this is the statement that Plenus declares to be not Catholic, that interior spiritual participation in the Mass is superior to physical participation.

    I'm struggling to see how this statement would cause someone to ask:  "Are you even Catholic?"

    Our Lord regularly emphasized interior prayer, denouncing those whose lips praised God but whose hearts were far from Him.

    I'm not even sure how this is even mildly controversial.

    St. Pius X said that it's better to have a Low Mass than a High Mass done badly.

    So from those two premises, I conclude that it's better to have just a good/talented Gregorian chant schola sing the Mass while the congregations stands down, if the latter are going to sing the Mass badly, resulting in a cacophony that would actually detract from the dignity of the Mass and also interfere with those attempting to follow the Mass interiorly with the correct prayerful dispositions.  If I'm hearing cacophony around me, it's a distraction from prayer, whereas a talented Gregorian schola would have the opposite effect.

    So, the extent to which participation or non-participation are conductive to the proper interior dispositions of those assisting at Mass, it can be much better to have the congregation NOT participate and to "stand down", as it were.

    Now, where one might pick a fight with me is where I said that St. Pius X's emphasis (at least purported ... from the selective evidence cited by Plenus) may have been mistaken, from our perspective of 20/20 hindsight, where see now see the culmination of that trend in the Novus Ordo attitude which holds that interior-only participation is insufficient ... and where there's a blurring between the priestly/clerical aspect of the Sacred Liturgy with the role of the laity and the nature of their participation.  To undo this, one would probably have to eliminate congregational singing for about 10-15 years before bringing it back.  LOL

    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #43 on: January 15, 2025, 02:23:06 PM »
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  • I have always disliked and rejected congregational singing and the dialogue Mass.

    Lately I have acquired Dr. Carol Byrne's book Born of Revolution Vol I.

    When you read it you'll see the extensive research, wisdom and common sense and what Pope Saint Pius X actually wrote/said and not what some second person, even if that was one speaking for him, said/interpreted he said.

    Below is a very brief sampling.

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f077_Dialogue_5.htm
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Dominique

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #44 on: January 15, 2025, 04:05:35 PM »
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  • Why am I not surprised that you would have us follow your opinion rather than the opinion and authority of Pope St Pius X? Are you even Catholic? I certainly agree with you moving your jaw less on this issue.
    Well, that's not very charitable, to say the least!
    What gives you more of a right to speak on this matter than Ladislaus???!!!