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Author Topic: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant  (Read 51015 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2023, 06:59:42 AM »
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  • As I say, or as the Cardinal Vicar of Rome said, "which by order of the Holy Father all are required to give ear."? I am amazed you dispute that. It would take some pretty serious conspiracy facts (not theories) to refuse this as being Pope St Pius X's directive. It doesn't sound to me like he is inviting us to follow his liturgical reform if it does not offend our sensibilities, but rather, that he is restoring divine worship according to the will of Holy Mother Church. That the whole assembly of the faithful should join in the singing is the very first rule he lays down after stating that this is by order of the Holy Father. Let the scholars do their work. But let us continue to worship in the way that has been handed down to us until a more competent ecclesiastical authority determines otherwise. Or else we will have nothing but confusion and disunity in the Church. There is enough of that already.

    There are no rubrics for the faithful.

    “Answer: First of all we should recall that none of these rules is obligatory. It is merely the wish of the Church that the faithful participate actively at Mass, but she does not want to force anything. The best answer we can give you would be by giving you an extract of the general rubrics for Mass taken from the Roman Missal:”

    https://sspx.org/en/attendance-and-participation-mass
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #16 on: September 05, 2023, 05:22:21 PM »
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  • There are no rubrics for the faithful.

    It is merely the wish of the Church...
    Hmmm....

    I would say the French would certainly agree with this. Have you ever attended Mass at St Nicolas du Chardonnet? Talk about a free-for-all!

    Thanks for the spar, Sean. Have a good one!


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #17 on: January 13, 2025, 01:00:16 AM »
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  • I have revived this thread after stumbling across new evidence from memoirs of Cardinal Merry Del Val demonstrating that Pope St Pius X did indeed want congregational singing of Gregorian Chant:

    https://isidore.co/misc/Res%20pro%20Deo/TheCatholicArchive_OCRed/OCR_layer_only/Memories%20of%20Pope%20Pius%20X%20by%20Cardinal%20Merry%20Del%20Val,%201951_OCR.pdf

    PIUS X AND MUSIC (p53)
    One of his cherished wishes was to promote congregational singing wherever possible, for he held it to be most instructive for people of all classes and a powerful means of arousing an intelligent interest in the beauties of our sacred liturgy, especially in regard to the holy sacrifice of the Mass. He loved to dwell in this respect upon the remarkable results achieved in parishes where the congregation had been taught to sing correctly the different portions of the Mass in plain chant and the psalms and hymns at Sunday Vespers. He frequently expressed regret that more importance was not given to a practice which enabled people really to understand and deeply to feel the significance of Catholic worship, and which, if extensively applied, would attract so many to a knowledge and fulfillment of their religious duties. An effectual method of attaining this object appeared to him to be, that in every diocese a capable teacher of church music, approved by the Bishop, should spend a short time in each parish and there train a nucleus of singers, selected among the members of the congregation, who would soon lead the rest,
    and then go round again at intervals, to improve what he had initiated and encourage progress.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #18 on: January 13, 2025, 07:58:42 AM »
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  • OK, while what St. Pius X had in mind perhaps reflected some kind of ideal, in practice, it was a mistake to promote it and a disaster.  OK, MAYBE in Italy, where singing is so much a part of the culture that people learned how to sing before they could even talk ... but in 99.99% of situations, it's an unmitigated disaster.  Obviously this is from the 20/20 hindsight of what happened later, and also from a practical (vs. theoretical) standpoint.

    Yes, I found it edifying to participate in the chant, especially the psalms and Divine Office at STAS, but in every other place where I found myself surrounded by congregational singing, it was an unmitigated disaster, with 3/4 of the congregation either mispronouncing or even badly butchering the Latin, and even a greater percentage unable to sing on key if their lives depended on it.  Some believed themselves to be Pavarotti reincarnated and belted stuff out an extreme high volumes (and many of these types mispronounced Latin and/or got the words wrong and/or were off key), drowning out many of the at-least-adequate singers around them.  In every case, it was headache-incuding, distracting, disedifying, and did harm to the dignity of the Mass.  Even St. Pius X stated that it would be better to have Low Mass than to have Sung Mass done BADLY, and I've never experienced it NOT done badly outside of STAS.  If someone tried to pull that nonsense at STAS, where they sang really loud, off key, were butchering the Latin, they'd be pulled aside and told to stop, to keep it very quiet until they could figure it out and learn how to do it correctly.

    In addition, while hindsight is 20/20 and St. Pius X didn't anticipate the coming Liturgical revolution, it was a mistake to promote some notion that the ideal fo the Mass entailed "active" participation from the faithful, rather than primarily spiritual participation.  That's precisely the attitude that led inexorably to the Novus Ordo.  As one of the articles points out earlier in this thread, the translators of the Latin snuck in the adjective "active" for "active participation" that nowhere appears in the original Latin, exploiting this for later gain.

    This is similar to other papal mistakes, such as when Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus made some ill-advised statemets that, when properly interpreted were correct, but then gave an opening for the Modernists to go to town on it to absolutely undermine Sacred Scripture.  Or when Pius IX made some statements about EENS that were technically correct, but which the EENS-haters went to town on, distorting and misinterpreting it to undermine EENS dogma.  Pius IX himself was surprised and angry about the prevailing (mis)interpretation, but he made a mistake in not realizing that this would happen.  Pius XII did LOTS of stuff that were highly regrettable that led to disasters, such as allowing discussion of evolution, opening the door to NFP as Catholic birth control, setting up Bugnini to start the liturgical experimentation, permitting various experimental Masses, such as the "Mass of the Future", permitting Catholics to participate in the first Ecuмenical gatherings, and on and on and on.

    So, not only was this an ill-advised step toward the notion of "active [physical vs. spiritual] participation" being essential to or ideal for the Liturgy, but congregational singing is fraught with the danger of not being distinguished from the purely liturgical parts of the Mass that are inherently intended for CLERICS to execute, taking a step towards the whole notion of "lay ministers", where the roles in the Mass were merely different "parts" rather than as public prayer of the Church that were extensions of the priesthood (formerly requiring Minor Orders as a result), leading ultimately and inexorably to this notion of the "priesthood of the faithful".

    So, maybe in Heaven, or in an ideal state ... to some extent (without blurring the distinction between the faithful and the clergy), but in practice an unmitigated disaster that the Modernists would also exploit to completely undermine Catholic theology regarding the Liturgy.

    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #19 on: January 13, 2025, 08:58:35 AM »
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  • OK, while what St. Pius X had in mind perhaps reflected some kind of ideal, in practice, it was a mistake to promote it and a disaster.  OK, MAYBE in Italy, where singing is so much a part of the culture that people learned how to sing before they could even talk ... but in 99.99% of situations, it's an unmitigated disaster.  Obviously this is from the 20/20 hindsight of what happened later, and also from a practical (vs. theoretical) standpoint.

    Yes, I found it edifying to participate in the chant, especially the psalms and Divine Office at STAS, but in every other place where I found myself surrounded by congregational singing, it was an unmitigated disaster, with 3/4 of the congregation either mispronouncing or even badly butchering the Latin, and even a greater percentage unable to sing on key if their lives depended on it.  Some believed themselves to be Pavarotti reincarnated and belted stuff out an extreme high volumes (and many of these types mispronounced Latin and/or got the words wrong and/or were off key), drowning out many of the at-least-adequate singers around them.  In every case, it was headache-incuding, distracting, disedifying, and did harm to the dignity of the Mass.  Even St. Pius X stated that it would be better to have Low Mass than to have Sung Mass done BADLY, and I've never experienced it NOT done badly outside of STAS.  If someone tried to pull that nonsense at STAS, where they sang really loud, off key, were butchering the Latin, they'd be pulled aside and told to stop, to keep it very quiet until they could figure it out and learn how to do it correctly.

    In addition, while hindsight is 20/20 and St. Pius X didn't anticipate the coming Liturgical revolution, it was a mistake to promote some notion that the ideal fo the Mass entailed "active" participation from the faithful, rather than primarily spiritual participation.  That's precisely the attitude that led inexorably to the Novus Ordo.  As one of the articles points out earlier in this thread, the translators of the Latin snuck in the adjective "active" for "active participation" that nowhere appears in the original Latin, exploiting this for later gain.

    This is similar to other papal mistakes, such as when Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus made some ill-advised statemets that, when properly interpreted were correct, but then gave an opening for the Modernists to go to town on it to absolutely undermine Sacred Scripture.  Or when Pius IX made some statements about EENS that were technically correct, but which the EENS-haters went to town on, distorting and misinterpreting it to undermine EENS dogma.  Pius IX himself was surprised and angry about the prevailing (mis)interpretation, but he made a mistake in not realizing that this would happen.  Pius XII did LOTS of stuff that were highly regrettable that led to disasters, such as allowing discussion of evolution, opening the door to NFP as Catholic birth control, setting up Bugnini to start the liturgical experimentation, permitting various experimental Masses, such as the "Mass of the Future", permitting Catholics to participate in the first Ecuмenical gatherings, and on and on and on.

    So, not only was this an ill-advised step toward the notion of "active [physical vs. spiritual] participation" being essential to or ideal for the Liturgy, but congregational singing is fraught with the danger of not being distinguished from the purely liturgical parts of the Mass that are inherently intended for CLERICS to execute, taking a step towards the whole notion of "lay ministers", where the roles in the Mass were merely different "parts" rather than as public prayer of the Church that were extensions of the priesthood (formerly requiring Minor Orders as a result), leading ultimately and inexorably to this notion of the "priesthood of the faithful".

    So, maybe in Heaven, or in an ideal state ... to some extent (without blurring the distinction between the faithful and the clergy), but in practice an unmitigated disaster that the Modernists would also exploit to completely undermine Catholic theology regarding the Liturgy.

    As a kind of side thought, the Novus Ordo basically makes everyone into an acolyte, making all of the responses, and furiously paging through their hand missals on top of that.  You can always spot the newcomers at the TLM, bless their hearts, taking those bilingual missals that many TLM sites have, and trying to follow along word-for-word as though they were at the Novus Ordo.  It needs to be explained to them that, no, it's not going to be quite the same, don't worry about following along.

    I did this at my very first TLM (St Athanasius in Virginia, late 1980s), only with a small bound missal my father got me at an estate sale (he was always going to those), and thinking "well, it'll be just like the Latin Novus Ordo, I'll just follow along like I do there, and make the responses", and when I couldn't hear or understand a thing, and Mass was over before I knew it, I came out of the nave bewildered and said to myself "was that a Mass?".  Thankfully I kept going back, and things began to make sense.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #20 on: January 13, 2025, 08:23:59 PM »
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  • OK, while what St. Pius X had in mind perhaps reflected some kind of ideal, in practice, it was a mistake to promote it and a disaster.  OK, MAYBE in Italy, where singing is so much a part of the culture that people learned how to sing before they could even talk ... but in 99.99% of situations, it's an unmitigated disaster.  Obviously this is from the 20/20 hindsight of what happened later, and also from a practical (vs. theoretical) standpoint.
    I'm sorry to hear your experience has been such a bad one, Ladislaus.

    I do recall one SSPX priest having to interrupt his Mass and turn around to address the choir: "Would the schola please stop singing"! Unfortunately, the holy Pope's directives have not always been followed regarding training etc, most understandable given the situation in the Church.

    In spite of all that, my experience has been the opposite of yours and I would say that it was a stroke of genius from St Pius X and has greatly edified the Church. Thank you St Pius X! Thank you Archbishop Lefebvre! And of course Deo gratias!

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #21 on: January 13, 2025, 09:14:43 PM »
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  • Pope Pius X was a saint, no doubt about that, but not every decision he made was a wise one. Saints are not infallible.

    I don't know much about the Breviary, but it seems to me that his reform was uncalled for and somewhat tradition breaking.

    The case here seems to be the same. I don't live among "traditional" Protestants, but it seems to me that congregational singing is a trademark of them. I really dislike when people say the acolite's responses out loud or when they sing along with the choir. I love silence at mass. A sung mass obviously has less of it, but even then, you can get contemplative when you hear the choir at a distance, but not when you have an opera singer belting the Kyrie eleison by your side.

    All things considered, it makes much more sense to me if we see the holy Pope's directives as aimed at a particular people at a particular time. He never left Northern Italy a single time on his whole life, as far as I am aware.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #22 on: January 13, 2025, 09:29:11 PM »
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  • As a kind of side thought, the Novus Ordo basically makes everyone into an acolyte, making all of the responses, and furiously paging through their hand missals on top of that.  You can always spot the newcomers at the TLM, bless their hearts, taking those bilingual missals that many TLM sites have, and trying to follow along word-for-word as though they were at the Novus Ordo.  It needs to be explained to them that, no, it's not going to be quite the same, don't worry about following along.
    On the contrary, what better way to attend Holy Mass than with the very words Holy Mother Church uses? I am no newcomer, and this is certainly my preferred method to pray the Mass.

    That's not to say there are not other ways of attending Mass as you rightly suggest. I derived great profit in my younger years from reading St Leonard of Port Maurice's Hidden Treasure, Holy Mass which gives a method of assisting at Mass whereby we divide it into four parts, each dedicated to one of the four ends of the Mass/prayer i.e. adoration, thanksgiving, reparation and supplication. However, the very prayers of the Mass fulfill this same purpose, obviously.

    This is a quote taken from a 1953 pastoral letter of Bishop de Castro Mayer: "Mediator Dei insists upon union with the intentions of Christ our Lord and that of the celebrant, and leaves it entirely up to the faithful how to realize this end... All exclusivity in this matter is reproachable."



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #23 on: January 13, 2025, 09:48:14 PM »
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  • On the contrary, what better way to attend Holy Mass than with the very words Holy Mother Church uses? I am no newcomer, and this is certainly my preferred method to pray the Mass.

    That's not to say there are not other ways of attending Mass as you rightly suggest. I derived great profit in my younger years from reading St Leonard of Port Maurice's Hidden Treasure, Holy Mass which gives a method of assisting at Mass whereby we divide it into four parts, each dedicated to one of the four ends of the Mass/prayer i.e. adoration, thanksgiving, reparation and supplication. However, the very prayers of the Mass fulfill this same purpose, obviously.

    This is a quote taken from a 1953 pastoral letter of Bishop de Castro Mayer: "Mediator Dei insists upon union with the intentions of Christ our Lord and that of the celebrant, and leaves it entirely up to the faithful how to realize this end... All exclusivity in this matter is reproachable."

    Agreed.  In terms of the internal (true) participation in the Mass, everyone's different.  Now, where the line needs to be drawn is where the "newcomers" actually say the responses out loud ... even when it's not a "Dialog" Mass and no one else is doing it ... because they've been trained in the Novus Ordo that somehow a silent participation is inadequate and means that you're not REALLY participating in the Mass.  Consequently, they feel compelled to make responses out loud.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #24 on: January 13, 2025, 09:54:37 PM »
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  • Pope Pius X was a saint, no doubt about that, but not every decision he made was a wise one. Saints are not infallible.

    I don't know much about the Breviary, but it seems to me that his reform was uncalled for and somewhat tradition breaking.

    The case here seems to be the same. I don't live among "traditional" Protestants, but it seems to me that congregational singing is a trademark of them. I really dislike when people say the acolite's responses out loud or when they sing along with the choir. I love silence at mass. A sung mass obviously has less of it, but even then, you can get contemplative when you hear the choir at a distance, but not when you have an opera singer belting the Kyrie eleison by your side.

    All things considered, it makes much more sense to me if we see the holy Pope's directives as aimed at a particular people at a particular time. He never left Northern Italy a single time on his whole life, as far as I am aware.

    We've probably lost a lot of the detail in this high-level discussion.  I can see certain aspects of singing along to be beneficial.  As I mentioned, while I personally prefer quiet/Low Masses, I did derive much spiritual benefit from singing the Office / Psalms at STAS.  But that also had to be balanced against the potential bad message where the distinction between the clerical/priests aspect of the Church's Public Prayers gets conflated with the faithful's participation, to the point that we've seen culminating in the Novus Ordo.  Again, of course, we have the benefit of hindsight, which is always 20/20.  And it's also possible that we're overreacting a bit in the OTHER direction due to the abuse of this we've seen with the Novus Ordo, potentially throwing some baby out with the proverbial bathwater.  I think in a way we've all lost our bearings due to havoc cause by Novus Ordo.

    I do know of some Traditional Catholics who regret some of the changes St. Pius X made to not only the Breviary but also to the Feast Day (and Classes of Feasts) in the calendar, etc.

    But, yes, in PRACTICE, apart from seminary, every attempt at congregational participation that I've been in the midst of, whether in terms of singing or of "dialog" has been an unmitigated disaster, a cacophony, and not befitting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Perhaps it may have worked in Italy where singing was second-nature to people, but in the US, watch out!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #25 on: January 13, 2025, 09:57:06 PM »
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  • I do recall one SSPX priest having to interrupt his Mass and turn around to address the choir: "Would the schola please stop singing"!

    :laugh1:

    Of course, I find that a bit uncharitable (and have seen priests do similar) to do it during the Mass.  I would just very quietly and kindly take it up outside the Mass.  This would be very humiliating to the poor souls in the choir who were undoubtedly trying their best.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #26 on: January 13, 2025, 09:57:42 PM »
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  • Pope Pius X was a saint, no doubt about that, but not every decision he made was a wise one. Saints are not infallible.

    I don't know much about the Breviary, but it seems to me that his reform was uncalled for and somewhat tradition breaking.

    The case here seems to be the same. I don't live among "traditional" Protestants, but it seems to me that congregational singing is a trademark of them. I really dislike when people say the acolite's responses out loud or when they sing along with the choir. I love silence at mass. A sung mass obviously has less of it, but even then, you can get contemplative when you hear the choir at a distance, but not when you have an opera singer belting the Kyrie eleison by your side.

    All things considered, it makes much more sense to me if we see the holy Pope's directives as aimed at a particular people at a particular time. He never left Northern Italy a single time on his whole life, as far as I am aware.
    We all have different temperaments, different sensibilities, different preferences...

    However, Pope St Pius X was not talking to a particular people but to the whole Church: "Our present Instruction, to which, as to a juridical code of sacred music, We will with the fullness of Our Apostolic Authority that the force of law be given, and We do by Our present handwriting impose its scrupulous observance on all". Subsequent Popes, before the Vatican II revolution, continued in the same vein. We are not free to reject such disciplinary measures unless they are a danger to the Faith.

    Congregational singing is a trademark of Catholics. "He who sings prays twice", says St Augustine.

    History is a witness to the fact that a great number of pagans converted and became civilized due to the singing of liturgical chants in the old basilicas, where the bishop, the clergy and the faithful sang alternately the divine praises. In these churches, the opponents of the Catholic Faith learned to know what the dogma of the Communion of Saints meant. The Emperor Valens, for instance, was overcome and fainted at the sight of the majesty wherewith St. Basil celebrated the divine mysteries; the heretics of Milan blamed St. Ambrose that the crowds were fascinated by the liturgical chants, and the same chants moved Augustine to adhere to faith in Christ. Later on in the Middle Ages, almost the whole town would form an enormous singing choir at religious events. The craftsmen, architects, sculptors and even scholars at this period drew their knowledge of things theological from the liturgy, and up till today their inspiration is marked out in their monuments (Pius XI, Divini Cultus, December 20, 1928).

    Here is some more evidence of the traditional practice from Fortesque's The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (1912):

    "In the Middle Ages it [the Creed] was commonly sung, not by the choir, but by all the people... The excellent custom that all the people should sing at least the creed has lasted in parts of France and Germany and is now being revived. Another mediaeval practice was that while the choir sang the creed the people sang 'Kyrie eleison'."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #27 on: January 13, 2025, 10:00:49 PM »
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  • :laugh1:

    Of course, I find that a bit uncharitable (and have seen priests do similar) to do it during the Mass.  I would just very quietly and kindly take it up outside the Mass.  This would be very humiliating to the poor souls in the choir who were undoubtedly trying their best.
    No, no, Ladislaus. Not if you had heard that choir! It was certainly not what St Pius X had in mind and needed to be terminated! It was a cacophony beyond belief...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #28 on: January 13, 2025, 10:05:08 PM »
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  • Here is some more evidence of the traditional practice from Fortesque's The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (1912):

    "In the Middle Ages it [the Creed] was commonly sung, not by the choir, but by all the people... The excellent custom that all the people should sing at least the creed has lasted in parts of France and Germany and is now being revived. Another mediaeval practice was that while the choir sang the creed the people sang 'Kyrie eleison'."

    I find myself a bit suspicious of such claims, that the Creed was "commonly" sung by all the people.  Father Cekada released a great video which surprised me very much, where he showed that the beginning movements of the Liturgical Revolution started MUCH earlier than I had suspected.  By the early 1900s, the game was probably afoot.  I think that we have to be careful about this bias I see among Traditional Catholics where it's almost assumed that anything before 1950s or so is guaranteed "Traditional".

    I say that I'm skeptical of such claims because having been involved with Classical Studies (Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Church Fathers, etc.) ... many such claims are made on very flimsy evidence, and are very much anecdotal at best, without any kind of adequate sample size.  There was a lot of variation out there due to the lack of ready access to printed materials (very expensive) and due to poor communication.  That's precisely why St. Pius V stepped in with Quo Primum to reign in the massive amount of variety.

    As I said, I've found many such claims based upon very flimsy evidence, and in fact the Antiquarianists who wrecked the Tridentine Mass had a field day by presenting their baseless speculations about Liturgy in the "Early Church" as if it were known/established fact.  It was based 100% on speculation that I completely disagree with, where IMO the reality was quite the opposite based on what's known about the attitudes of the early Christians, which in some ways were derived from the Jєωιѕн ones.  We see the Apostles in fact still going to the temple early on, and the notion of these nearly 100% "ad libbed" Liturgies the Modernist Antiquarians claimed were going on in the early Church are absolutely foreign to their mindset.  Cf. the remarkable similarities in the book "How Christ Said the First Mass", not to mention the amazing similarities between Liturgies across the world that emerged after the Church could come out from underground and where communication between different parts of the world was not great.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #29 on: January 13, 2025, 10:09:48 PM »
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  • Also moms giving off a somewhat charismatic vibe.

    Trying to imagine this one.  Were they striking up the old "orans" pose during the Pater Noster and saying it along with the priest?  :laugh1: