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Author Topic: Newly Baptised and Struggling  (Read 3803 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2024, 06:56:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on April 23, 2024, 06:08:35 AM
    Hate to be the one to break it to you, but your civil marriage was valid since you were both non-Catholics. Thus to live with this other woman, however nice she is, would be adultery.
    I could be wrong, but wouldn't his baptism wash away all sin even any that would come from adultery from a previous marriage? He's reborn as a son of God now.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #46 on: April 23, 2024, 07:36:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: St Giles on April 23, 2024, 06:56:45 AM
    I could be wrong, but wouldn't his baptism wash away all sin even any that would come from adultery from a previous marriage? He's reborn as a son of God now.
    I don't quite understand the point. Yes, all sins were forgiven him in baptism, but that doesn't make his marriage invalid or allow him to be intimate with another woman which I understood to be his present, post-baptismal, and unfortunate condition.
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    Offline StrivingCatholic

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #47 on: April 23, 2024, 08:13:21 AM »
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    • ugh...this is so...disappointing... first I was slammed by things that contradicts with what I have learnt and thought I knew...then to find out the Church is so divided and I cannot trust anything... and now this part about my past marriage...:'(
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #48 on: April 23, 2024, 08:27:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: StrivingCatholic on April 23, 2024, 08:13:21 AM
    ugh...this is so...disappointing... first I was slammed by things that contradicts with what I have learnt and thought I knew...then to find out the Church is so divided and I cannot trust anything... and now this part about my past marriage...:'(
    Yes, things are very serious unfortunately. The times are such that many of us had to break off relationships and be persecuted for the faith.

    God has mercifully brought you to where you are now, so close to the Truth, only a few more steps to take, although maybe the hardest of all.

    Trust in God's Providence, pray the rosary for discernment and all will be well!
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #49 on: April 23, 2024, 08:29:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: StrivingCatholic on April 23, 2024, 08:13:21 AM
    ugh...this is so...disappointing... first I was slammed by things that contradicts with what I have learnt and thought I knew...then to find out the Church is so divided and I cannot trust anything... and now this part about my past marriage...:'(

    Yes, unfortunately, things are a mess since Vatican II, and you're not alone in struggling with it.  Standards that the Church had in place for millennia were suddenly thrown out the window.  It can be difficult to navigate, but pray the Rosary faithfully, ask Our Lady for help in discerning God's will, and you'll invariably get to where you need to be.  This is precisely why some of us are Traditional Catholics.  Nefarious groups have been (by their own admission) attempting to infiltrate the Church for centuries, and by 1958 they finally succeeded at the top.  This is why Our Lady left the Third Secret and why Sister Lucia stated that its meaning would be "clearer" when nearing 1960.  This is a great apostasy, a falling away, that was predicted even in Sacred Scripture before the final arrival of the "Man of Sin".  Cardinal Ciappi, who read the secret, stated that it was about an apostasy that would "begin at the top".  This was all foretold for the sake of the elect, so that they wouldn't falter and lose faith in the Church, and God allowed it as a necessary sifting.  Just stay devoted to Our Lady's Rosary, which she said would be the last remedy available to mankind, and she'll take care of you and guide you.
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #50 on: April 23, 2024, 09:27:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on April 23, 2024, 06:08:35 AM
    Hate to be the one to break it to you, but your civil marriage was valid since you were both non-Catholics. Thus to live with this other woman, however nice she is, would be adultery.

    Living in adultery prevents you from receiving the Eucharist as you will be in a perpetual state of unrepentant mortal sin.  There are those on this forum who unwittingly got into this same situation but once you know, you go.  You must separate from this new "wife" who is actually a concubine.  You may not like this truth but it has to be done.  And forget about living as "brother and sister" or the internal forum.  That's not Catholic at all.  If you stay with this woman you are condemning her to Hell for all eternity as well as yourself.  If you love her, then you will want her to get out of this sinful co-hab situation.  As a Catholic, she already knows in her heart that this is adultery.  Our Lady would never condone what you are doing.  She said many marriages are not of God.  

    You won't listen to this.  I know from experience.  But you will pay a dear price...like many of us, you must remain single and celibate the rest of your life.
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #51 on: April 23, 2024, 09:49:40 AM »
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    • Dear Striving Catholic,

    Thank you for sharing your story. It took a lot of courage, I'm sure. 

    I was going to reply with some information relating to your original post, but I can imagine that the replies to your story have thrown you into anguish and turmoil. 

    My advice to you now is to immediately seek the counsel of a traditional Roman Catholic priest. Let him examine your case, and tell you for certain if your previous marriage is valid. 

    I suggest contacting Immaculate Heart Seminary in Round Top, NY. 

    Send them a message via email. I find these priests very charitable. 

    Just Google it, and the website will come up. 
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #52 on: April 23, 2024, 10:07:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on April 23, 2024, 09:49:40 AM
    Dear Striving Catholic,

    Thank you for sharing your story. It took a lot of courage, I'm sure.

    I was going to reply with some information relating to your original post, but I can imagine that the replies to your story have thrown you into anguish and turmoil.

    My advice to you now is to immediately seek the counsel of a traditional Roman Catholic priest. Let him examine your case, and tell you for certain if your previous marriage is valid.

    I suggest contacting Immaculate Heart Seminary in Round Top, NY.

    Send them a message via email. I find these priests very charitable.

    Just Google it, and the website will come up.
    A priest's opinion doesn't give you certainty as you suggest, only the Church can give you certainty with a declaration of nullity, which is at present, unfortunately, unavailable. The SSPV is so indifferentist that it doesn't even require general confessions for people converting from the Novus Ordo. It's useless to gamble on the opinion of some priest and then if one doesn't like that priest's opinion he can go in search of another fallible opinion.

    Catholic principles in this case are clear-cut and anyone can apply them for himself - unbaptized non-Catholics marry validly when they seek a civil marriage, that's certain, the question is only if that's what happened and StrivingCatholic knows that for himself. In any case, to go seek another marriage a declaration of nullity would be required, which he cannot get, since there is no competent authority to provide it at present.

    In short, one can and should seek advice from knowledgeable priests or laymen, however, one can't go seek certainty from a priest's opinion.

    P.S. The marriage is assumed valid until proven otherwise beyond any doubt, not the other way around.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #53 on: April 23, 2024, 10:12:58 AM »
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    Hate to be the one to break it to you, but your civil marriage was valid since you were both non-Catholics. Thus to live with this other woman, however nice she is, would be adultery.
    Isn't there the Pauline/Petrine privelege for marriage, where if a person converts to the Faith and his unbaptized spouse won't convert, they can remarry a Catholic and receive the full sacrament?  It's a rare case, but it may apply to this thread.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #54 on: April 23, 2024, 10:35:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2024, 10:12:58 AM
    Isn't there the Pauline/Petrine privelege for marriage, where if a person converts to the Faith and his unbaptized spouse won't convert, they can remarry a Catholic and receive the full sacrament?  It's a rare case, but it may apply to this thread.
    The matter is dealt with in the 1917 Code of Canon law in Chapter 10, Article 1. However, it seems evident that one cannot just dissolve his own marriage without a competent authority, which is currently unavailable, and would thus not apply to the present situation. 
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #55 on: April 23, 2024, 10:48:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2024, 10:12:58 AM
    Isn't there the Pauline/Petrine privelege for marriage, where if a person converts to the Faith and his unbaptized spouse won't convert, they can remarry a Catholic and receive the full sacrament?  It's a rare case, but it may apply to this thread.
    Lay people can't apply the Pauline/Petrine privilege to their own situation.  Only a Tribunal or the Rota can issue an declaration.  And there is no traditional authority to do so.  The OP must separate from the new "wife".
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #56 on: April 23, 2024, 11:24:10 AM »
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    The matter is dealt with in the 1917 Code of Canon law in Chapter 10, Article 1. However, it seems evident that one cannot just dissolve his own marriage without a competent authority, which is currently unavailable, and would thus not apply to the present situation.
    The issue is, if both he and his first wife were unbaptized, then their marriage was civil/natural only.

    If he becomes baptized and joins the Church, he could marry *again* (technically it wouldn't be a second marriage, but be his first SACRAMENTAL marriage) to a practicing catholic.  This assumes the original spouse does not want to join the Faith.

    A civil/natural marriage can be "upgraded" to a sacrament in this specific circuмstance, as St Paul explains.  Since the purpose of marriage is to get to heaven, a civil/natural marriage in which a spouse is hostile to the Faith can be "dissolved" (not sure if that's the correct word) so that a sacramental union can take place.

    Would this need the approval of a marriage tribunal?  A catholic marriage tribunal wouldn't waste their time on non-sacramental marriages, as it's clear in Canon Law that these aren't catholic marriages.  I've heard these cases handled by Trad priests many times.  A parish priest may have the power to decide, but I'm unsure. 
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #57 on: April 23, 2024, 11:44:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2024, 11:24:10 AM
    The issue is, if both he and his first wife were unbaptized, then their marriage was civil/natural only.

    If he becomes baptized and joins the Church, he could marry *again* (technically it wouldn't be a second marriage, but be his first SACRAMENTAL marriage) to a practicing catholic.  This assumes the original spouse does not want to join the Faith.

    A civil/natural marriage can be "upgraded" to a sacrament in this specific circuмstance, as St Paul explains.  Since the purpose of marriage is to get to heaven, a civil/natural marriage in which a spouse is hostile to the Faith can be "dissolved" (not sure if that's the correct word) so that a sacramental union can take place.

    Would this need the approval of a marriage tribunal?  A catholic marriage tribunal wouldn't waste their time on non-sacramental marriages, as it's clear in Canon Law that these aren't catholic marriages.  I've heard these cases handled by Trad priests many times.  A parish priest may have the power to decide, but I'm unsure.
    If I remember correctly, it can be handled at the diocesan level, however, again, one cannot just decide this for himself, UNLESS we can find that it is explicitly allowed to do so. So, a Canon Law commentary on these canons should clearly state that a layman can, when lacking a priest or bishop with ordinary jurisdiction or a marriage tribunal, presume his non-sacramental marriage dissolved.

    I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case. Why? Because the marriage has to be dissolved, that's an act that has to take place, so, it's not that the marriage automatically dissolves once someone converts and would like the issue to go away, but it has to be dissolved by a competent authority, which is not present.

    In any case, StrivingCatholic should first come to terms with the Great Apostasy, the question of the Pope, the New Mass, etc. otherwise we're putting the cart before the horse.


     
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #58 on: April 23, 2024, 11:54:52 AM »
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    • Quote
    If I remember correctly, it can be handled at the diocesan level, however, again, one cannot just decide this for himself, UNLESS we can find that it is explicitly allowed to do so. So, a Canon Law commentary on these canons should clearly state that a layman can, when lacking a priest or bishop with ordinary jurisdiction or a marriage tribunal, presume his non-sacramental marriage dissolved.

    I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case. Why? Because the marriage has to be dissolved, that's an act that has to take place, so, it's not that the marriage automatically dissolves once someone converts and would like the issue to go away, but it has to be dissolved by a competent authority, which is not present.
    Yes, i'm not suggesting a layman can make any decisions related to canon law.  I'm suggesting (and i've known examples) where Trad priests investigated the matter and the person converted to the Faith and was "re-married" to a Trad.  But the priest made the call.
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Newly Baptised and Struggling
    « Reply #59 on: April 23, 2024, 12:01:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: StrivingCatholic on April 23, 2024, 08:13:21 AM
    ugh...this is so...disappointing... first I was slammed by things that contradicts with what I have learnt and thought I knew...then to find out the Church is so divided and I cannot trust anything... and now this part about my past marriage...:'(
    Don't lose hope. It's only another trial. All is worth it for an eternity with the infinite God. I have to say, I'm baffled by this recent development. Something just doesn't seem right. Surely there's some resolution in this current crisis in the church. Perhaps some sort of supplied jurisdiction for the case of this marriage to be judged if the authority of the apostates in Rome can't be trusted. 

    Read up on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, his letters, speeches, sermons, and also Bishop Antonio de Castro Meyer. It's incredible they persevered against the Pope and their colleagues, but they knew they were thoroughly backed by the truth of Tradition. 

    God has brought you this far, even to this forum, don't stop now.

    "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"
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    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"
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