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Author Topic: Meaning of Matthew 7:23  (Read 1432 times)

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Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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Meaning of Matthew 7:23
« on: May 19, 2023, 11:05:39 AM »
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  • Does Jesus literally mean He never knew the sinners, even those who called upon Him? God is all-knowing but does this verse mean by His own Divine mystery He only knows some of His children - those baptized into Christ with water and Spirit AND live His teachings (do good works in His Name, charity, and live the Faith)?

    Would this explain why many Catholics ask Blessed Mary to intercede for them, and their prayers are answered because she knows us, and her Son will do what she asks of Him, if for His greater glory and to show that He is real), but in the end, same Catholics will perish for eternity because, ultimately, they were wicked, hence, Jesus Christ never knew these people? Would this explain the meaning of the names written in the Book of Life mentioned in Revelation? God only knows those souls who are written in that Book?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Meaning of Matthew 7:23
    « Reply #1 on: May 19, 2023, 11:46:42 AM »
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  • Does Jesus literally mean He never knew the sinners, even those who called upon Him? God is all-knowing but does this verse mean by His own Divine mystery He only knows some of His children - those baptized into Christ with water and Spirit AND live His teachings (do good works in His Name, charity, and live the Faith)?

    Would this explain why many Catholics ask Blessed Mary to intercede for them, and their prayers are answered because she knows us, and her Son will do what she asks of Him, if for His greater glory and to show that He is real), but in the end, same Catholics will perish for eternity because, ultimately, they were wicked, hence, Jesus Christ never knew these people? Would this explain the meaning of the names written in the Book of Life mentioned in Revelation? God only knows those souls who are written in that Book?
    The Scripture for reference:
    Mat. 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.  22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?  23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.


    I can't find a video of it at the moment, but Fr. Wathen explains it very well. Very briefly from memory, the jist of it is that those who are pleading that they've done many miracles in His name etc. lived and died outside of the Catholic Church, hence He never knew them. The video is named, or at one time was named, "Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation."

    If I find it I will post it, it's well worth hearing.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Meaning of Matthew 7:23
    « Reply #2 on: May 19, 2023, 11:54:31 AM »
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  • The Scripture for reference:
    Mat. 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.  22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?  23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.


    I can't find a video of it at the moment, but Fr. Wathen explains it very well. Very briefly from memory, the jist of it is that those who are pleading that they've done many miracles in His name etc. lived and died outside of the Catholic Church, hence He never knew them. The video is named, or at one time was named, "Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation."

    If I find it I will post it, it's well worth hearing.

    Thanks Stubborn. I very much like Fr. Wathen. Please post if you find it.

    So it's only heretics and apostates that Christ never knew? Did He li
    terally never know them? Or does it, also, include Catholics who die in mortal sin? To live in sin is to be lawless (iniquitous/iniquity) - against Divine Law.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Meaning of Matthew 7:23
    « Reply #3 on: May 19, 2023, 12:13:56 PM »
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  • It's everyone outside of the Church. Here is a  Link to Fr. Wathen's sermons I think there are about 150 of them, all audio, no video and the above title I mentioned is one of them. You need to just download to your computer and find that title. And of course there are many other great sermons in there, another one about salvation is named "Only sanctification is the authentic mark of a true Christian and a true prophet." (I have no idea who named these sermons, talks, interviews etc., but I think most of the names reflect pretty well what the sermon is about).

    Anyway, it's not as if Christ did not know them in that verse, He knew them and created them for heaven, but they chose hell by remaining outside of the Church, by remaining outside of the Church they could not know Him.
     But it's hard to do this particular subject justice in this format while I'm working, better to listen to the sermon, he answers your questions a whole lot better than I could. After you do that, please post your thoughts.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Meaning of Matthew 7:23
    « Reply #4 on: May 19, 2023, 02:29:45 PM »
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  • Thanks Stubborn. I very much like Fr. Wathen. Please post if you find it.

    So it's only heretics and apostates that Christ never knew? Did He li
    terally never know them? Or does it, also, include Catholics who die in mortal sin? To live in sin is to be lawless (iniquitous/iniquity) - against Divine Law.

    The "known" ones are the elect; the "unknown" ones are everyone else, and yes, that includes non-elect Catholics. This verse says it nicely, especially being inclusive of your accurate iniquity comment:

    2 Timothy 2:19

    But the sure foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal: the Lord knoweth who are his; and let every one depart from iniquity who nameth the name of the Lord.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Meaning of Matthew 7:23
    « Reply #5 on: May 19, 2023, 02:56:50 PM »
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  • My bitchute    I have some Fr. Wathen sermons on my bitchute channel. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Meaning of Matthew 7:23
    « Reply #6 on: May 21, 2023, 05:54:25 PM »
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  • Does Jesus literally mean He never knew the sinners, even those who called upon Him? God is all-knowing but does this verse mean by His own Divine mystery He only knows some of His children - those baptized into Christ with water and Spirit AND live His teachings (do good works in His Name, charity, and live the Faith)?

    Would this explain why many Catholics ask Blessed Mary to intercede for them, and their prayers are answered because she knows us, and her Son will do what she asks of Him, if for His greater glory and to show that He is real), but in the end, same Catholics will perish for eternity because, ultimately, they were wicked, hence, Jesus Christ never knew these people? Would this explain the meaning of the names written in the Book of Life mentioned in Revelation? God only knows those souls who are written in that Book?

    A couple of speculations on your questions:

    God knows the deepest intricacies of every soul; for He is the Judge of every soul. He is omniscient, wise, all-seeing.

    The Lord beholdeth the heart. 1 Sam 16:7.

    I am the Lord who search the heart and prove the reins: who give to every one according to his way, and according to the fruit of his devices. Jeremias 17:10.

    For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight: but all things are naked and open to his eyes. Hebrews 4:12-13

    I think we may make distinctions when pondering the words of our Lord in Matthew’s Gospel, in light of your query.

    “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.”

    One distinction is that between the natural and the supernatural orders, between the regenerate and the unregenerate. This quality of God, as all-seeing and all-knowing Judge of all men, can be logically reduced to His attribute of omniscience, omitting the aspect of the subjective reality of each soul’s standing – though His omniscience certainly does also pertain to subjective standing.

    Another distinction is to be made among the regenerate, the line being drawn to separate the Elect from the Reprobate, the soul in the state of grace from the soul in mortal sin, the sheep from the goat. This becomes more of a subjective standard, and, I suppose, closer to our Lord’s meaning in Matthew 7.

    To be known by Jesus Christ, according to His meaning in Matthew 7, seems to me to have to do with the quality of a soul in the state of sanctifying grace. This soul will possess all the infused virtues and gifts in varying degrees, and in varying states of act. This soul may not be perfect, but God dwells in it. And it is this indwelling Presence of God which is the basis and foundation of Christ’s knowledge of that soul. For this knowledge is blessedness, is Divine Faith and Charity, is the beginning and pledge of Eternal Life. It is a living thing, which actually belongs to Christ as much as to the soul. It is the Life of Christ animating the soul, and elevating it above nature. Christ knows this soul the way a man knows the members of his own body.

    I think St. Paul is getting at it when he proclaims: And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.  Galatians 2:20

    If we are known by Christ, we are not alone in our souls. We are united to God in an inarticulable and incomprehensible, but absolutely real manner.

    Thus it boils down to the question of being in the state of grace; and not the question of regeneration. For one can sin after Baptism, and go to hell.

    There are many spiritual writers who also describe a particular vision of the Almighty, wherein He can see inside the souls of His children, Christ, His Son, and Mary, His Beloved. Sanctifying grace begets a similitude to God, and it is this similitude which attracts God. For this similitude is no superficial likeness. It is a real and proper union of the soul with God, so that the soul is no longer entirely distinct from God.

    We ask our Lady to intercede for us because one, She has a special mission in the Church. She is the Mediatrix of All Graces, and the New Eve, the true “Mother of the Living.” See Genesis 3. Christ gave Her to all men, to be their Mother and Queen, if only they would have Her. This mission of Hers is a formal and objective reality – a Divine ordinance.

    And two, subjectively speaking, no other creature is more united to God, more intimate with God, or more pleasing to God. Thus, by virtue of that quality, no one has His ear as does this Lady. Wherefore it is a very wise and prudent thing to ask Her to intercede for you; but be sure you ask aright. :)