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Author Topic: Marriage vows and domestic abuse  (Read 7699 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2022, 12:00:07 PM »
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  • Here is the book. In this edition, the story I referred to is on page 98.

    It's a very good book, by the way!

    https://www.cathinfo.com/files/sinners.pdf
    I couldn't agree more that this is an amazing story, and a scenario that needs to be dwelt upon by anyone who is in similar circuмstances.  People do this all the time, hang onto one "pet sin", might even be very virtuous people otherwise, but simply will not turn loose of contraception, abortion choice advocacy, various kinds of corporeal gratification (not just sɛҳuąƖ, it could be drugs or alcohol), an illicit partner, or in our day, a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ relationship.  

    But did it really happen, or is it just a parable?  If it really happened, then that means someone had to be there noting the conversation (was it a confession?), or the priest himself would have had to remember it, and then relate the story.  If the latter were the case, then it couldn't have been a sacramental confession, or else he would be breaking the seal.

    Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no desire to refute the story, I just have to wonder how something such as this could be recorded accurately, and for someone who does wish to refute it --- you know the type --- that's the first question they'd ask..  Still, I know, people had sharper memories then, than they do now, so maybe somebody was standing by, a relative, a nurse, whomever, and quickly committed it to writing, or else was able to remember the exact conversation after the fact.

    As a kind of aside, someone very close in my acquaintance has this reflexive urge, when something is mentioned as having a supernatural explanation, instantly to start disputing it, and offering explanations why it couldn't be supernatural.  Fatima --- couldn't have happened, the children made it all up.  Eucharistic miracles --- couldn't happen, it's a fraud.  And so on.  For instance, this person had been firmly convinced of the existence of a ghost in a house they used to live in, and disputed any natural explanation for this (changes in air pressure and drafts that would cause doors to close, bed slats falling due to gravity, etc.), but at the same time doubts eternal life after death.  I reminded this person that, if you maintain that there was a ghost in the house (a past owner of the house who had died), yet deny the immortality of the soul, that doesn't make sense, you are maintaining that we live for a time after death, then our soul just evaporates or something.  Being challenged to look at this way, this person no longer insists that it was a ghost, and now maintains that it was probably natural after all, this after years of having been adamant that it was the soul of the past owner.  Bottom line, they don't want to admit the immortality of the soul, so they "shoot the witness" and repudiate what they'd once maintained.  Anything to avoid that feared cognitive dissonance.

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #16 on: July 17, 2022, 02:23:27 PM »
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  • So sspx issues annulment?  Thats very bold. 


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #17 on: July 17, 2022, 02:54:00 PM »
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  • Simpleman --

    Call it the scientific method. I took that story as true as a "hypothesis" and used it to form my worldview and beliefs about human nature (like a Theory)
    And thus far, all my life experience (scientific experiments) have only verified/given proof to that theory.

    I have had no reason to doubt that is how human nature works, thus far. So whether it's a true story or not, the ideas they're pushing are 100% true.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #18 on: July 17, 2022, 03:33:41 PM »
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  • Simpleman --

    Call it the scientific method. I took that story as true as a "hypothesis" and used it to form my worldview and beliefs about human nature (like a Theory)
    And thus far, all my life experience (scientific experiments) have only verified/given proof to that theory.

    I have had no reason to doubt that is how human nature works, thus far. So whether it's a true story or not, the ideas they're pushing are 100% true.

    Agreed, the story is very inspiring, and no doubt that even if is a parable, many such things have happened --- someone has an illicit lover, they can give up everything else sinful in their lives, but due to natural (if misguided) affection, libido, overpowering sɛҳuąƖ attraction, sentimentalism, or not being willing to turn loose of something that "can't be wrong because it feels so right", that it is the one thing in life that they love more than Almighty God Himself, and if given a choice, they will choose the created good (as they see it) over the eternal good.

    It's good reading and well worth pondering.  It certainly falls within the realm of what ordinary people are capable of.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #19 on: July 17, 2022, 03:35:38 PM »
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  • Undisclosed "abusive temper" is not grounds for an annulment.
    As I have pointed out before, it sure can be.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #20 on: July 17, 2022, 03:43:07 PM »
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  • Undisclosed "abusive temper" is not grounds for an annulment.

    Whoever downthumbed this knows nothing about Catholic teaching regarding marriage.  We have at least one closet Modernist and a fair number of feminists on this board here.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #21 on: July 17, 2022, 03:45:22 PM »
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  • As I have pointed out before, it sure can be.

    No ... it can't.  This topic of what can annul a marriage has been discussed thoroughly here, and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  Just because you "point" something "out", aka claim it, doesn't make it true.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #22 on: July 17, 2022, 03:50:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus 7/17/2022, 3:45:22 PM
    No ... it can't.  This topic of what can annul a marriage has been discussed thoroughly here, and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  Just because you "point" something "out", aka claim it, doesn't make it true.
    1917
    Canon 1083
    § 1. Error concerning the person renders marriage invalid.
    § 2. Error about a quality of the person, even if it gave rise to the contract, renders marriage invalid only:
    1.° If the error about quality amounts to an error of the person;
    2.° If a free person contracts marriage with a person thought to be free, but he was really a slave in servitude strictly speaking.

    The "person" includes everything about the person.

    I did not list all the exceptions from the 1917 code, only the one I thought applied to deceit.

    As I have said several times: i am no theologian.  talk to a traditional priest you trust.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #23 on: July 17, 2022, 03:58:41 PM »
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  • Perhaps they simply accept them now as is, I don't know, but they used to investigate each one brought to them and then make some kind of "determination" about whether it was legitimate or not ... which is extremely problematic.

    Keep in mind the nature of the SSPX and every other Trad lifeboat. They are there to provide the Mass and sacraments in a time of emergency. Who is welcome? Do you have to look into each person, and see if they are in the state of grace? Or is salvation more-or-less the responsibility of each individual person? The priest is only allowed/obligated to refuse communion to PUBLIC, NOTORIOUS sinners. Like a known prostitute in the town, or a public atheist.

    The priest must do his job, yes. He should make us aware of, and feel guilty for, each of our sins. If he fails in this duty, HE will be held to account. But in the end, it's each person's responsibility to be right with God.

    Isn't it the worst thing when independent priests/small groups try to "play God" and pontificate about this or that opinion, position, or issue? "You can't receive Communion here unless you ______". That is exactly what priests should NOT be doing.

    In the end, the Catholic Church is the great net, enclosing fishes both good and bad. God will sort them out.

    Long story short, the SSPX (and others) might be advised to consider annulments legit, but that does NOT mean God is OK with that annulment. You are responsible for your own soul. You should be concerned what GOD thinks, not the Conciliar Church, the SSPX, a trad group, a trad priest, or your friend group.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #24 on: July 17, 2022, 04:02:15 PM »
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  • Keep in mind the nature of the SSPX and every other Trad lifeboat. They are there to provide the Mass and sacraments in a time of emergency. Who is welcome? Do you have to look into each person, and see if they are in the state of grace? Or is salvation more-or-less the responsibility of each individual person? The priest is only allowed/obligated to refuse communion to PUBLIC, NOTORIOUS sinners. Like a known prostitute in the town, or a public atheist.

    The priest must do his job, yes. He should make us aware of, and feel guilty for, each of our sins. If he fails in this duty, HE will be held to account. But in the end, it's each person's responsibility to be right with God.

    Isn't it the worst thing when independent priests/small groups try to "play God" and pontificate about this or that opinion, position, or issue? "You can't receive Communion here unless you ______". That is exactly what priests should NOT be doing.

    In the end, the Catholic Church is the great net, enclosing fishes both good and bad. God will sort them out.

    Long story short, the SSPX (and others) might be advised to consider annulments legit, but that does NOT mean God is OK with that annulment. You are responsible for your own soul. You should be concerned what GOD thinks, not the Conciliar Church, the SSPX, a trad group, a trad priest, or your friend group.
    Exactly.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #25 on: July 17, 2022, 04:17:03 PM »
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  • 1917
    Canon 1083
    § 1. Error concerning the person renders marriage invalid.
    § 2. Error about a quality of the person, even if it gave rise to the contract, renders marriage invalid only:
    1.° If the error about quality amounts to an error of the person;
    2.° If a free person contracts marriage with a person thought to be free, but he was really a slave in servitude strictly speaking.

    The "person" includes everything about the person.

    I did not list all the exceptions from the 1917 code, only the one I thought applied to deceit.

    As I have said several times: i am no theologian.  talk to a traditional priest you trust.

    No, the "person" does NOT include EVERYTHING about the person.

    There's two major categories.  1) Error regarding the person vs. 2) error regarding the QUALITY of a person.  Error regarding the person means about the person's essential identity ... who they are, etc.  So, for instance, if you married a woman, but the woman had an identical twin who swapped out for the other when wedding vows were exchanged.  Or some other thing that's core to the basic identity of the person you married.

    "Abusive anger" refers to the QUALITY of a person.  This QUALITY has to be so essential that this would effectively translate into an essential error about the person.  So various considerations like ... this person had an undisclosed addition to pornography or impurity, or various vices or character flaws, those were never considered to suffice to annul a marriage.  I tried to argue that a man's being a sodomite would qualify, but even that didn't suffice in and of itself to pre-V2 marriage tribunals (there had to be other conditions).

    But having had an "abusive" temper (which is somewhat subjective to begin with) does not rise to the level of an essential characteristic of a person that would render a marriage null.

    This kind of stuff is bleeding into the Novus Ordo view of annulment ... which expanded the causes for "nullity" to about a dozen or more, and with enough categories so that pretty much anything would justify a declaration of nullity (including various psychological underdevelopment or incompatibility).


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #26 on: July 17, 2022, 05:17:15 PM »
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  • No, the "person" does NOT include EVERYTHING about the person.

    There's two major categories.  1) Error regarding the person vs. 2) error regarding the QUALITY of a person.  Error regarding the person means about the person's essential identity ... who they are, etc.  So, for instance, if you married a woman, but the woman had an identical twin who swapped out for the other when wedding vows were exchanged.  Or some other thing that's core to the basic identity of the person you married.

    "Abusive anger" refers to the QUALITY of a person.  This QUALITY has to be so essential that this would effectively translate into an essential error about the person.  So various considerations like ... this person had an undisclosed addition to pornography or impurity, or various vices or character flaws, those were never considered to suffice to annul a marriage.  I tried to argue that a man's being a sodomite would qualify, but even that didn't suffice in and of itself to pre-V2 marriage tribunals (there had to be other conditions).

    But having had an "abusive" temper (which is somewhat subjective to begin with) does not rise to the level of an essential characteristic of a person that would render a marriage null.

    This kind of stuff is bleeding into the Novus Ordo view of annulment ... which expanded the causes for "nullity" to about a dozen or more, and with enough categories so that pretty much anything would justify a declaration of nullity (including various psychological underdevelopment or incompatibility).
    As I have said several times: i am no theologian.  talk to a traditional priest you trust.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #27 on: July 17, 2022, 05:17:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    The "person" includes everything about the person.
    No.  It’s impossible to know everything about a person (most people don’t even know themselves well).  Plus, people can be tempted to, and sin in, things after marriage that weren’t a problem before marriage.  Some temptations don’t happen til later in life, as many times maturity brings success and success (or then, fear of failure) tempts one in a way that your youth never could  (ie successful businessman is tempted to a bad business deal….or a happy spouse is tempted to adultery because of boredom).


    No one can predict the future and it’s impossible to disclose all attributes of our ourselves, pre-marriage. 

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #28 on: July 17, 2022, 05:31:57 PM »
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  • No.  It’s impossible to know everything about a person (most people don’t even know themselves well).  Plus, people can be tempted to, and sin in, things after marriage that weren’t a problem before marriage.  Some temptations don’t happen til later in life, as many times maturity brings success and success (or then, fear of failure) tempts one in a way that your youth never could  (ie successful businessman is tempted to a bad business deal….or a happy spouse is tempted to adultery because of boredom).


    No one can predict the future and it’s impossible to disclose all attributes of our ourselves, pre-marriage.
    True, but in my opinion, and I am no theologian, that deceit regarding a serious character defect which will hamper the marriage, are two errors about the quality of the person which amounts to errors of the person.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #29 on: July 17, 2022, 05:41:53 PM »
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  • I always thought that the key to annulment was the capacity of the person(s) getting married at the moment of the ceremony. Are they in full capacity to make the contract licit at that moment, or did they have diminished or limited capacity ( possibly due to the other partner as well) at the time of the ceremony that would nullify the contract? A lot of what's being said here are unfortunate and even dangerous character flaws of a person/persons within a marriage, that may support separation, but does not constitute nullity.