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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Spirit?  (Read 17772 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2018, 08:46:30 PM »
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  • .
    In the Douay-Rheims Old Testament the term Holy Spirit (or holy spirit) occurs just 4 times. We know now that it could not have been a conscious matter of the human author to be referring to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity because at that time, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity had not yet been revealed. That wouldn't happen until the Second Person taught the Apostles.
    .
    Here are the 4 places:
    .
    1  100%  "Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me." [Psalms 50:13]

    2  100%  "For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in."  [Wisdom 1:5]

    100%  "And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above:"  [Wisdom 9:17]

    100%  "And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel."  [Daniel 13:45]
    .
    Among these, the first 3 could qualify as indicating a prophesy of the revelation yet to come. The last refers to something else, the "the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel."
    .
    .
    In the OT Holy Ghost occurs only once:
    .
    1  100%  "He created her in the Holy Ghost, and saw her, and numbered her, and measured her."  [Ecclesiasticus 1:9]
    .
    In one other instance ghost alone is found:
    .
    2  3%  "Then some of the friends of Heliodorus forthwith begged of Onias, that he would call upon the most High to grant him his life, who was ready to give up the ghost."  [2 Machabees 3:31]


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #76 on: June 30, 2018, 09:12:34 PM »
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  • Not once is Holy Spirit used in the D-R. Notice every time it is talking about a holy Spirit.

    PDF Searh for Holy Spirit in the Douay-Rheims New Testament https://www.catholicspiritualdirection.org/douayrheimsbible.pdf


    The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians,  Chapter 1:13

    In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise,



    The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians, Chapter 4:30

    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption



    The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians Chaper 5:18

    And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury; but be ye filled with the holy Spirit,



    The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians Chapter 4:8

    Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #77 on: June 30, 2018, 10:04:42 PM »
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  • 1  100%  "Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me." [Psalms 50:13]

    2  100%  "For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in."  [Wisdom 1:5]

    3 100%  "And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above:"  [Wisdom 9:17]


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34021.htm

    St. Ambrose

    On the Holy Spirit (Book I)

    Chapter 4.

    The Holy Spirit is one and the same Who spoke in the prophets and apostles, Who is the Spirit of God and of Christ; Whom, further, Scripture designates the Paraclete, and the Spirit of life and truth.

    55. But no one will doubt that the Spirit is one, although very many have doubted whether God be one. For many heretics have said that the God of the Old Testament is one, and the God of the New Testament is another. But as the Father is one Who both spoke of old, as we read, to the fathers by the prophets, and to us in the last days by His Son; Hebrews 1:1-2 and as the Son is one, Who according to the tenour of the Old Testament was offended by Adam, Genesis 3:17 seen by Abraham, Genesis 18:22-23 worshipped by Jacob; Genesis 28:17 so, too, the Holy Spirit is one, who energized in the prophets, 2 Peter 1:21 was breathed upon the apostles, John 20:22 and was joined to the Father and the Son in the sacrament of baptism. Matthew 28:19 For David says of Him: "And take not Your Holy Spirit from me." And in another place he said of Him: "Whither shall I go from Your Spirit?"

    56. That you may know that the Spirit of God is the same as the Holy Spirit, as we read also in the Apostle: "No one speaking in the Spirit of God says Anathema to Jesus and no one can say, Lord Jesus, but in the Holy Spirit," 1 Corinthians 12:3 the Apostle calls Him the Spirit of God. He called Him also the Spirit of Christ, as you read: "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." Romans 8:9 And farther on: "But if the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you." Romans 8:11 The same is, then, the Spirit of God, Who is the Spirit of Christ.

    57. The same is also the Spirit of Life, as the Apostle says: "For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has delivered me from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2

    58. Him, then, Whom the Apostle called the Spirit of Life, the Lord in the Gospel named the Paraclete, and the Spirit of Truth, as you find: "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter [Paraclete], that He may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, Whom this world cannot receive; because it sees Him not, neither knows Him." John 14:16-17 You have, then, the Paraclete Spirit, called also the Spirit of Truth, and the invisible Spirit. How, then, do some think that the Son is visible in His Divine Nature, when the world cannot see even the Spirit?

    59. Receive now the saying of the Lord, that the same is the Holy Spirit Who is the Spirit of Truth, for you read in the end of this book: "Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20:22 And Peter teaches that the same is the Holy Spirit Who is the Spirit of the Lord, when he says: "Ananias, why has it seemed good to you to tempt and to lie to the Holy Spirit?" Acts 5:3 And immediately after he says again to the wife of Ananias: "Why has it seemed good to you to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" Acts 5:9 When he says "to you," he shows that he is speaking of the same Spirit of Whom he had spoken to Ananias. He Himself is, then, the Spirit of the Lord Who is the Holy Spirit.

    60. And the Lord Himself made clear that the same Who is the Spirit of the Father is the Holy Spirit, when according to Matthew He said that we ought not to take thought in persecution what we should say: "For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaks in you." Matthew 10:20 Again He says according to St. Luke: "Be not anxious how you shall answer or speak, for the Holy Spirit of God shall teach you in that hour what you ought to say." Luke 12:11-12 So, although many are called spirits, as it is said: "Who makes His Angels spirits," yet the Spirit of God is but one.

    61. Both apostles and prophets received that one Spirit, as the vessel of election, the Doctor of the Gentiles, says: "For we have all drunk of one Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:13 Him, as it were, Who cannot be divided, but is poured into souls, and flows into the senses, that He may quench the burning of this world's thirst.





    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102185.htm

    St. Augustine

    Letter 185

    50. But those with whom we are arguing, or about whom we are arguing, are not to be despaired of, for they are yet in the body; but they cannot seek the Holy Spirit, except in the body of Christ, of which they possess the outward sign outside the Church, but they do not possess the actual reality itself within the Church of which that is the outward sign, and therefore they eat and drink damnation to themselves. 1 Corinthians 11:29 For there is but one bread which is the sacrament of unity, seeing that, as the apostle says, "We, being many, are one bread, and one body." 1 Corinthians 10:17 Furthermore, the Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the Head and Saviour of His body. Ephesians 5:23 Outside this body the Holy Spirit gives life to no one seeing that, as the apostle says himself, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;" Romans 5:5 but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church; for it is written of them, "They separate themselves being sensual, having not the Spirit." Jude 19 But neither does he receive it who is insincerely in the Church, since this is also the intent of what is written: "For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee deceit." Wisdom 1:5 If any one, therefore, wishes to receive the Holy Spirit, let him beware of continuing in alienation from the Church, let him beware of entering it in the spirit of dissimulation; or if he has already entered it in such wise, let him beware of persisting in such dissimulation, in order that he may truly and indeed become united with the tree of life.





    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130103.htm

    St. Augustine

    On the Trinity (Book III)


    21.

    (. . .)

    "And Your counsel who has known, except Thou give wisdom, and send Your Holy Spirit from above;" therefore we refrain indeed from searching out the things which are in heaven, under which kind are contained both angelical bodies according to their proper dignity, and any corporeal action of those bodies; yet, according to the Spirit of God sent to us from above, and to His grace imparted to our minds, I dare to say confidently, that neither God the Father, nor His Word, nor His Spirit, which is the one God, is in any way changeable in regard to that which He is, and whereby He is that which He is; and much less is in this regard visible. Since there are no doubt some things changeable, yet not visible, as are our thoughts, and memories, and wills, and the whole incorporeal creature; but there is nothing that is visible that is not also changeable.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #78 on: June 30, 2018, 10:18:59 PM »
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  • Not once is Holy Spirit used in the D-R. Notice every time it is talking about a holy Spirit.

    The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians,  Chapter 1:13

    In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise,



    The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians, Chapter 4:30

    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption



    The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians Chaper 5:18

    And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury; but be ye filled with the holy Spirit,



    The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians Chapter 4:8

    Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.

    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment180.shtml

    Ephesians,  Chapter 1:13

    Ver. 13. In whom you . . . . were sealed, &c. Having been regenerated in baptism, you have received the Holy Spirit and the supernatural gifts which he communicates, by which he has, as it were, impressed upon you the seal of your sanctification and the pledge of your salvation. It is not an external impression, such as that by which soldiers are marked by their sovereigns, nor circuмcision, as of old, but it is a mark within you—the grace with which you are filled—which shews itself outwardly by miraculous effects, &c. Calmet. — Some refer these words, in whom you were sealed, to the sacrament of baptism; others to confirmation: both, with the sacrament of holy orders, confer a character, or mark, of which S. Paul seems to speak whenever he speaks of God sealing us.



    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34023.htm

    St. Ambrose

    On the Holy Spirit, Book III

    Chapter 8.

    The aforesaid unity is proved hereby, that as the Father is said to be grieved and tempted, so too the Son. The Son was also tempted in the wilderness, where a figure of the cross was set up in the brazen serpent: but the Apostle says that the Spirit also was there tempted. St. Ambrose infers from this that the Israelites were guided into the promised land by the same Spirit, and that His will and power are one with those of the Father and the Son.

    48. And we may behold this unity also in other passages of the Scriptures. For whereas Ezekiel says to the people of the Jews: "And you have grieved Me in all these things, says the Lord;" Ezekiel 16:43 Paul says to the new people in his Epistle: "Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in Whom you were sealed." Ephesians 4:30 Again, whereas Isaiah says of the Jews themselves: "But they believed not, but grieved the Holy Spirit;" Isaiah 63:10 David says of God: "They grieved the Most High in the desert, and tempted God in their hearts."




    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34021.htm


    St. Ambrose

    On the Holy Spirit (Book I)


    Chapter 8.

    The Holy Spirit is given by God alone, yet not wholly to each person, since there is no one besides Christ capable of receiving Him wholly. Charity is shed abroad by the Holy Spirit, Who, prefigured by the mystical ointment, is shown to have nothing common with creatures; and He, inasmuch as He is said to proceed from the mouth of God, must not be classed with creatures, nor with things divisible, seeing He is eternal.

    90. Observe at the same time that God gives the Holy Spirit. For this is no work of man, nor gift of man; but He Who is invoked by the priest is given by God, wherein is the gift of God and the ministry of the priest. For if the Apostle Paul judged that he was not able to give the Holy Spirit himself by his own authority, and considered himself so far unequal to this office that he wished us to be filled by God with the Spirit, Ephesians 5:18 who is sufficient to dare to arrogate to himself the conferring of this gift? So the Apostle uttered this wish in prayer, and did not claim a right by any authority of his own; he desired to obtain, he did not presume to command. Peter, too, says that he is not capable of compelling or restraining the Holy Spirit. For he spoke thus: "Wherefore if God has granted them the same grace as to us, who was I that I could resist God?" Acts 11:17





    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34023.htm


    St. Ambrose

    On the Holy Spirit, Book III

    Chapter 2.

    The Son and the Spirit are alike given; whence not subjection but one Godhead is shown by Its working.

    9. And not only did the Father send the Son, but also gave Him, as the Son Himself gave Himself. For we read: "Grace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for our sins." Galatians 1:3-4 If they think that He was subject in that He was sent, they cannot deny that it was of grace that He was given. But He was given by the Father, as Isaiah said: "Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given;" Isaiah 9:6 but He was given, I dare to say it, by the Spirit also, Who was sent by the Spirit. For since the prophet has not defined by whom He was given, he shows that He was given by the grace of the Trinity; and inasmuch as the Son Himself gave Himself, He could not be subject to Himself according to His Godhead. Therefore that He was given could not be a sign of subjection in the God-head.

    10. But the Holy Spirit also was given, for it is written: "I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another Paraclete." John 14:16 And the Apostle says: "Wherefore he that despises these things despises not man but God, Who has given us His Holy Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Isaiah, too, shows that both the Spirit and the Son are given: "Thus," says he, "says the Lord God, Who made the heaven and fashioned it, Who established the earth, and the things which are in it, and gives breath to the people upon it, and the Spirit to them that walk upon it." Isaiah 42:5 And to the Son: "I am the Lord God, Who have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will strengthen You; and I have given You for a covenant of My people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out of their fetters those that are bound." Isaiah 42:6-7 Since, then, the Son is both sent and given, and the Spirit also is both sent and given, They have assuredly a oneness of Godhead Who have a oneness of action.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #79 on: June 30, 2018, 10:21:01 PM »
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  • God have mercy, this nonsense is raising my blood pressure.

    Mountain out of a mole hill.

    Don't be too eager to put forward an argument wherein you may find yourself teetering into heresy.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #80 on: July 01, 2018, 07:19:15 AM »
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  • It doesn't matter, really. I think either can be used.

    [/thread]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #81 on: July 01, 2018, 07:21:01 AM »
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  • Mountain out of a mole hill.

    THIS^^^

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #82 on: July 01, 2018, 07:29:34 AM »
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  • .
    Nonsense. There is no question that in the English language, Holy Ghost has been the standard-bearer for the Holy Name of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity since long before the 15th century. If that isn't capital T Tradition, then there isn't any. But it's also traditional. They don't have to be different things. Any connotations taken on for "ghost" don't hold a candle to the in-your-face Revolution that attacks everything holy in the Church. If you want to be a switch-hitter in your prayer life like so many other things you do, then go ahead, be agnostic or ambivalent or lukewarm (cf. St. John iii.16). But don't expect to attract any followers.

    I pray in Latin (except when I'm not using language ... e.g. meditation, or just speaking to God informally).  As for Holy Ghost being Tradition with a capital T, one vernacular translation in a modern spoken language is now Tradition?  Tradition with a capital T inherently has to have UNIVERSALITY about it, both in time and in space.  Non-Universal customs are by definition not Tradition.  And, yeah, the Pharisees accused Our Lord of being lukewarm (and worse) because he put the traditions of men in their proper perspective.  And adopting the spirit of the Pharisees is a very real danger / temptation among Traditional Catholics.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #83 on: July 01, 2018, 07:37:00 AM »
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  • "All change except away from evil, is the most dangerous of all things" (Plato)

    Anyone that does not respect what came before him, will learn the hard way why it was done the way it was done.

    Vernacular languages DO change.  And that kind of change could be good or bad or neutral.  It just happens with living languages.  That's why, when in doubt, go to the Latin.  And if the culture/language shifts away from the Church's standard, then the Church adapts.  Words can pick up negative connotations over time.  Take the word "gαy", for instance.  So you would fault the Church for changing a few vernacular translations in order to avoid phrases claiming that certain saints were "gαy" ... if for no other reason than to eliminate inappropriate chuckles from school kids?  In such cases, it's the language that changes and not the Church.  And the Church is constantly evaluating whether or not certain aspects of society are or are not in conformity with her own unchanging standards and principles.  So you have it completely backwards.  What doesn't change is the standard of the Church in judging culture and language.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #84 on: July 01, 2018, 09:41:14 AM »
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  • https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment180.shtml

    Ephesians,  Chapter 1:13

    Ver. 13. In whom you . . . . were sealed, &c. Having been regenerated in baptism, you have received the Holy Spirit and the supernatural gifts which he communicates



    The Haydock bible you quoted is not the original Douay-Rheims, it is a revised edition from the late 1800's. The same with the New Advent quotes, except they are translations from the early 20th century. 

    Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #85 on: July 01, 2018, 09:42:05 AM »
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  • Vernacular languages DO change.…..
    Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #86 on: July 01, 2018, 09:42:44 AM »
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  • God have mercy, this nonsense is raising my blood pressure.

    Mountain out of a mole hill.

    Don't be too eager to put forward an argument wherein you may find yourself teetering into heresy.
    Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #87 on: July 01, 2018, 11:03:37 AM »
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  • Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?

    Uhm, both terms appear in approved Catholic sources well before Vatican II.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #88 on: July 01, 2018, 11:47:27 AM »
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  • Uhm, both terms appear in approved Catholic sources well before Vatican II.
    I said nothing about Vatican II, I just simply asked: Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #89 on: July 01, 2018, 12:21:40 PM »
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  • I said nothing about Vatican II, I just simply asked: Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?

    And the answer should have been evident in my post.  I have encountered both terms in approved books and over time developed a preference for Holy Spirit ... most likely due to it being closest to the Latin, since I generally pray in Latin.  This really isn't that difficult.