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Offline Carissima

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Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« on: June 28, 2018, 10:36:05 AM »
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  • I was looking for the answer because I’ve only encountered opinions thus far. 

    I’ve heard Traditional Catholics say Spirit is Novus Ordo. 
    I have a Traditional Mass Missal from the 50’s that has Spirit throughout. 

    There is an article by Taylor Marshall it’s all I could find..Any thoughts?

    http://taylormarshall.com/2012/05/should-we-say-holy-ghost-or-holy-spirit.html

    The Holy Ghost is referred to as Ghost and Spirit in Scripture. So why the discrepancy?

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #1 on: June 28, 2018, 04:54:48 PM »
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  • The word ghost is English; the word spirit is derived from Latin

    Etymology[edit]
    From Middle English gostgast, from Old English gāst (“breath, soul, spirit, ghost, being”), from Proto-Germanic *gaistaz(“ghost, spirit”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰeyzd-*ǵʰizd-*ǵʰeysd-*ǵʰisd- (“anger, agitation”). Cognate with Scots ghaist(“ghost”), Saterland Frisian Gäist (“spirit”), West Frisian geast (“spirit”), Dutch geest (“spirit, mind, ghost”), German Geist(“spirit, mind, intellect”), Swedish gast (“ghost”).......

    From Middle English spirit, from Old French espirit (“spirit”), from Latin spīritus (“breath; spirit”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)peys- (“to blow......

    They are basically equivalents. There Is no discrepancy.
    Spirit is not "novus ordo". It is the translation into English from the Latin spiritus, which is used in the Holy Mass in name of the third Person of the Blessed Trinity 


    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #2 on: June 28, 2018, 06:08:42 PM »
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  • By discrepancy I meant that there are trads who will only say Ghost and never Spirit because they see it as Novus Ordo. Just wondering what other Traditional Catholics thought about it and what they do. 

    I re-trained myself to say Ghost instead of Spirit after coming to Tradition from Novus Ordo years ago. It was a recommendation from the other parishioners. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #3 on: June 28, 2018, 06:21:00 PM »
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  • If you use the term Holy Ghost in the liturgy you will say Sanctus Spiritus. 
    .
    If you are using the term in conversation or in praying the Rosary in English, say whichever you prefer. 
    .
    Too many petty "authorities" around in "tradition". I'd rather just be Catholic, so I am.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #4 on: June 29, 2018, 03:15:26 AM »
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  • By discrepancy I meant that there are trads who will only say Ghost and never Spirit because they see it as Novus Ordo. Just wondering what other Traditional Catholics thought about it and what they do.

    I re-trained myself to say Ghost instead of Spirit after coming to Tradition from Novus Ordo years ago. It was a recommendation from the other parishioners.
    .
    You did a good thing re-training yourself, Carissima!
    .
    Ghost is the English word that carries with it the connotation of PERSON more than spirit does. The word spirit can be an ambiguous thing, without any regard for person, for it can mean an attitude, a feeling, a mood, that is, something entirely subjective, something you can't clearly identify with a picture or a sound or physical dimensions. It can be very NEBULOUS. In fact, it can mean something very different to two different people. Consequently, in Merry Olde England, Holy Ghost became the norm long before the Protestant Deformation came rolling into town.
    .
    During my lifetime, including Vat.II, I personally heard priests teaching Catholics that they were no longer going to say, "Holy Ghost," but would say "Holy Spirit" instead when referring to the Third Person of the Trinity. (They ought to have said Blessed Trinity, and bowed their head while saying it.) The 1960's was a decade of tremendous change, and Vat.II was just another aspect of change. It was only when questioned that they would use the excuse, "Because we don't want to scare the children, and ghost can be scary." Years later, I also met others from far away places who had heard the same thing at that time.
    .
    It was, remember, the Supreme Court's ignorance of what constitutes PERSON that allowed for the horrendous crime of their ruling on Roe vs. Wade to take place, when the highest court of the land allowed for legalization of willful murder of the innocent, a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance. And the REASON was, the court did not recognize the personhood of a pre-born infant. They succumbed to the Jewish Talmud abominable lie, that a child doesn't become human (a person) until its head leaves the birth canal, thereby paving the way for "Partial-Birth Abortion."
    .
    Many innovations that came in the wake of Vat.II were not to be found literally in the documents. Communion-in-the-hand, moving the tabernacle, turning the altar around, tearing out the Communion rail, Mass in the Vernacular, changing the Canon of the Mass, re-naming Confession to "Reconciliation," changing the form of Bishops' Consecration and the form of Ordination of Priests, changing the words of the Hail Mary (Rejoice, favored one, the Lord is with you. Bless'd are you among women and bless'd is the name of your son..."). The list goes on and on. In every case (did I say "every" yes, every), whenever someone would complain or alert a priest or a nun to the fact that what they're changing was not to be found in the Vat.II documents, the reply was the same. The reply was the same in every case. Did I say the reply was the same in every case? I'm not making a mistake. EVERY CASE. They said the following:
    .
    This is in accord with the spirit of Vatican II.
    .
    Only problem was, they forgot one word. Sometimes all it takes is one word. If they had been honest they would have said:
    .
    This is in accord with the unclean spirit of Vatican II.
    Spot the difference.
    .
    At Vatican II the word "spirit" carried the whole council on it's back as if it were St. Christopher (whom they removed from the calendar, BTW).
    .
    The entire Newmass revolution was implemented with the APPEARANCE of being in accord with the spirit of Vatican II.
    If they had been honest and had said it was in accord with the unclean spirit of Vatican II, it would have FLOPPED.
    .
    There is a new spirit in the Church.
    This is a spirit of change.
    According to the spirit of Vat.II we're not going to genuflect anymore during the Credo.
    We don't genuflect in the center of the Church anymore, it's not the new spirit.
    Women don't wear veils because that's not the spirit anymore.
    The crucifix used to be horrible, now it's the risen Jesus, in the new spirit of the Church.
    We have added a 15th Station, the Resurrection, according to the spirit of Vat.II.
    In the new spirit we're removing pictures of Our Lady with a sword through her heart.
    And we're not going to say that verse with "pierce me through" anymore, in the new spirit.
    Children are allowed to run around and make noise in Church, it's the new spirit.
    We raise our arms at the Our Father and greet each other in the new spirit of the Church.
    We say, "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever" - that's the "doxology" in the new spirit.
    .
    So if you really like to say "spirit" then go right ahead. Just be aware, you're paying tacit obeisance to the Revolution.
    .
    This is for your information, if you want to learn something.
    .
    Maybe you don't want to learn, though.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 03:42:24 AM »
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  • I was looking for the answer because I’ve only encountered opinions thus far.

    I’ve heard Traditional Catholics say Spirit is Novus Ordo.
    I have a Traditional Mass Missal from the 50’s that has Spirit throughout.

    There is an article by Taylor Marshall it’s all I could find..Any thoughts?

    http://taylormarshall.com/2012/05/should-we-say-holy-ghost-or-holy-spirit.html

    The Holy Ghost is referred to as Ghost and Spirit in Scripture. So why the discrepancy?
    .
    After I wrote my reply, above, I went and read the linked article by Taylor Marshall. He has some good points, and brings in aspects of Anglican tradition as well as etymology and history. Those are good things.
    .
    I wouldn't change a word of what I wrote above, however, after reading his piece. I think it's important for us to recall what happened when we were alive to see it happen, because if we don't tell anyone, then we'll die and it will be forgotten as if it never happened. 
    .
    In two generations from now, children will ask their parents how this could have taken place, and their parents won't know the answers. That would be, because we had failed to pass the answers on to them. 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #6 on: June 29, 2018, 06:25:38 AM »
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  • If you use the term Holy Ghost in the liturgy you will say Sanctus Spiritus.
    .
    If you are using the term in conversation or in praying the Rosary in English, say whichever you prefer.
    .
    Too many petty "authorities" around in "tradition". I'd rather just be Catholic, so I am.
    That just sounds like the rare, hard headed trad that uses Holy Spirit and is still defending their action against all the trads that say it is Novus Ordo.

    After the death of Pius X the Modernists came out of the closet and began brainwashing the seminarians on the march to toward Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo (New Order).In the 1920's they invented the Dialogue Mass, the stepping stone to all the liturgical changes that led to the Novus Ordo.  Just because you see Holy Spirit here and there in a missal or book from 1950's does not mean that the name of the Holy Ghost was replaced by Holy Spirit by English speaking Catholics. No Catholic used Holy Spirit before they were brainwashed to use it in the mid to late 20th century. No trad should use it.

    In the mass, in my Latin Missal, Holy Ghost is Spiritui Sancto, Spiritu Sancto, Spiritum Sanctum. My priest told me that there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost. Neil Obstat explains it further. I immediately stopped using Holy Spirit.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #7 on: June 29, 2018, 11:13:51 AM »
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  • I agree with Neil and Last Trad.  One word can be misleading and totally change what was intended to convey.
    example.
    "The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary
    And she conceived of the Holy Ghost:

    Nothing misleading here.  BUT

    "The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary
    And she conceived of the Holy Spirit"

    Sounds like Mary conceived by the angel.

    A case of say what you mean and mean what you say.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #8 on: June 29, 2018, 11:32:22 AM »
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  • So if you really like to say "spirit" then go right ahead. Just be aware, you're paying tacit obeisance to the Revolution.

    Nonsense.  When I pray in English I use Spirit because it's derived from the Latin vs. the Anglo-Saxon Ghost.  I also don't like the connotations in English of a disembodied human soul (i.e. Casper the Friendly ...).  Also, in the US the Bible-thumpers tend to use Ghost and I don't want to be mistaken for one of them.  So I strongly prefer Spirit, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the Revolution.  I'd rather be taken for a Novus Ordo Catholic than a Bible beater.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #9 on: June 29, 2018, 11:41:43 AM »
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  • Nonsense.  When I pray in English I use Spirit because it's derived from the Latin vs. the Anglo-Saxon Ghost.  I also don't like the connotations in English of a disembodied human soul (i.e. Casper the Friendly ...).  Also, in the US the Bible-thumpers tend to use Ghost and I don't want to be mistaken for one of them.  So I strongly prefer Spirit, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the Revolution.  I'd rather be taken for a Novus Ordo Catholic than a Bible beater.
    Interesting.  I have never, ever heard a Protestant of any stripe use "Holy Ghost".  The only people I have ever heard use that term are traditional Catholics.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #10 on: June 29, 2018, 12:08:12 PM »
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  • Nonsense.  When I pray in English I use Spirit because it's derived from the Latin vs. the Anglo-Saxon Ghost.  
    That makes no sense since you are praying in English and in English all over the world it was always translated as Holy Ghost.  Nobody said in the name of The Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #11 on: June 29, 2018, 01:20:58 PM »
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  • Interesting.  I have never, ever heard a Protestant of any stripe use "Holy Ghost".  The only people I have ever heard use that term are traditional Catholics.
    The sort of Protestants who use the King James Version bible (and some even make it a point of belief that this is the only version allowed) also normally say "Holy Ghost".  I can understand Ladislaus not wanting to be mistaken for one of them.

    On the other hand, there is no question that that the change from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit"" is associated with the "reforms" of Vatican II.

    I have a solution;  we can pray in Latin only. :)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #12 on: June 29, 2018, 01:46:41 PM »
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  • Quote
    there is no question that that the change from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit"" is associated with the "reforms" of Vatican II.
    Exactly.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #13 on: June 29, 2018, 01:57:36 PM »
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  • .
    You did a good thing re-training yourself, Carissima!
    .
    Ghost is the English word that carries with it the connotation of PERSON more than spirit does. The word spirit can be an ambiguous thing, without any regard for person, for it can mean an attitude, a feeling, a mood, that is, something entirely subjective, something you can't clearly identify with a picture or a sound or physical dimensions. It can be very NEBULOUS. In fact, it can mean something very different to two different people. Consequently, in Merry Olde England, Holy Ghost became the norm long before the Protestant Deformation came rolling into town.
    .
    During my lifetime, including Vat.II, I personally heard priests teaching Catholics that they were no longer going to say, "Holy Ghost," but would say "Holy Spirit" instead when referring to the Third Person of the Trinity. (They ought to have said Blessed Trinity, and bowed their head while saying it.) The 1960's was a decade of tremendous change, and Vat.II was just another aspect of change. It was only when questioned that they would use the excuse, "Because we don't want to scare the children, and ghost can be scary." Years later, I also met others from far away places who had heard the same thing at that time.
    .
    It was, remember, the Supreme Court's ignorance of what constitutes PERSON that allowed for the horrendous crime of their ruling on Roe vs. Wade to take place, when the highest court of the land allowed for legalization of willful murder of the innocent, a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance. And the REASON was, the court did not recognize the personhood of a pre-born infant. They succumbed to the Jewish Talmud abominable lie, that a child doesn't become human (a person) until its head leaves the birth canal, thereby paving the way for "Partial-Birth Abortion."
    .
    Many innovations that came in the wake of Vat.II were not to be found literally in the documents. Communion-in-the-hand, moving the tabernacle, turning the altar around, tearing out the Communion rail, Mass in the Vernacular, changing the Canon of the Mass, re-naming Confession to "Reconciliation," changing the form of Bishops' Consecration and the form of Ordination of Priests, changing the words of the Hail Mary (Rejoice, favored one, the Lord is with you. Bless'd are you among women and bless'd is the name of your son..."). The list goes on and on. In every case (did I say "every" yes, every), whenever someone would complain or alert a priest or a nun to the fact that what they're changing was not to be found in the Vat.II documents, the reply was the same. The reply was the same in every case. Did I say the reply was the same in every case? I'm not making a mistake. EVERY CASE. They said the following:
    .
    This is in accord with the spirit of Vatican II.
    .
    Only problem was, they forgot one word. Sometimes all it takes is one word. If they had been honest they would have said:
    .
    This is in accord with the unclean spirit of Vatican II.
    Spot the difference.
    .
    At Vatican II the word "spirit" carried the whole council on it's back as if it were St. Christopher (whom they removed from the calendar, BTW).
    .
    The entire Newmass revolution was implemented with the APPEARANCE of being in accord with the spirit of Vatican II.
    If they had been honest and had said it was in accord with the unclean spirit of Vatican II, it would have FLOPPED.
    .
    There is a new spirit in the Church.
    This is a spirit of change.
    According to the spirit of Vat.II we're not going to genuflect anymore during the Credo.
    We don't genuflect in the center of the Church anymore, it's not the new spirit.
    Women don't wear veils because that's not the spirit anymore.
    The crucifix used to be horrible, now it's the risen Jesus, in the new spirit of the Church.
    We have added a 15th Station, the Resurrection, according to the spirit of Vat.II.
    In the new spirit we're removing pictures of Our Lady with a sword through her heart.
    And we're not going to say that verse with "pierce me through" anymore, in the new spirit.
    Children are allowed to run around and make noise in Church, it's the new spirit.
    We raise our arms at the Our Father and greet each other in the new spirit of the Church.
    We say, "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever" - that's the "doxology" in the new spirit.
    .
    So if you really like to say "spirit" then go right ahead. Just be aware, you're paying tacit obeisance to the Revolution.
    .
    This is for your information, if you want to learn something.
    .
    Maybe you don't want to learn, though.
    Thank you for a thorough and thoughtful response.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #14 on: June 29, 2018, 02:27:09 PM »
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  • Interesting.  I have never, ever heard a Protestant of any stripe use "Holy Ghost".  The only people I have ever heard use that term are traditional Catholics.

    Indeed, certain groups of Protestants ... as well as "charismatic" "Catholics" use Holy Ghost.  That article linked to by someone explains that history, that it's because King James Bible originally used Holy Ghost.

     

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