Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: DecemRationis on October 26, 2023, 07:05:38 AM
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I thought some might find this interesting. I attach a screenshot of the Greek interlinear of the Septuagint verse for Daniel 12:11. Here's the Douay for that verse:
(https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=32&ch=12&l=11-#x)
11 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=32&ch=12&l=11-#x)And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days,
Et a tempore cuм ablatum fuerit juge sacrificium, et posita fuerit abominatio in desolationem, dies mille ducenti nonaginta.
Douay-Rheims + Latin-Vulgate, Daniel Chapter 12 (drbo.org) (https://drbo.org/drl/chapter/32012.htm)
Most of us are familiar with the English translation as the sacrifice being "taken away." The Latin in the Vulgate is interesting. I don't know Latin beyond some basic vocabulary and knowing some prayers etc., so it would be interesting to hear from someone who can comment on that.
Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως, "alteration change." So the translation of the verse reads: "And from the time of the alteration change of the perpetual sacrifice, and of the putting the abomination - a thousand two hundred ninety days." The sacrifice is not "taken away," but altered or changed.
This is consistent with Daniel 7:25, speaking of the "Antichrist" figure:
25 And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.
Et sermones contra Excelsum loquetur, et sanctos Altissimi conteret : et putabit quod possit mutare tempora, et leges : et tradentur in manu ejus usque ad tempus, et tempora, et dimidium temporis.
St. Jerome commented on this text from Daniel:
"... And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.
St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel (1958) pp. 15-157 (tertullian.org) (https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm)
As I said, very interesting in light of the Novus Ordo changes in the holy sacrifice of the Mass.
The link for the Apostolic Bible app is apostolicbibleapp.com (http://www.apostolicbibleapp.com/)
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I thought some might find this interesting. I attach a screenshot of the Greek interlinear of the Septuagint verse for Daniel 12:11. Here's the Douay for that verse:
(https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=32&ch=12&l=11-#x)
Most of us are familiar with the English translation as the sacrifice being "taken away." The Latin in the Vulgate is interesting. I don't know Latin beyond some basic vocabulary and knowing some prayers etc., so it would be interesting to hear from someone who can comment on that.
Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως, "alteration change." So the translation of the verse reads: "And from the time of the alteration change of the perpetual sacrifice, and of the putting the abomination - a thousand two hundred ninety days." The sacrifice is not "taken away," but altered or changed.
This is consistent with Daniel 7:25, speaking of the "Antichrist" figure:
St. Jerome commented on this text from Daniel:
As I said, very interesting in light of the Novus Ordo changes in the holy sacrifice of the Mass.
The link for the Apostolic Bible app is apostolicbibleapp.com (http://www.apostolicbibleapp.com/)
Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago.
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Interesting.
Here's the Hebrew word from Daniel 12:11. It seems to mean a turning aside, so a departure, but also could means to be taken away. So it sounds like either meaning is possible.
http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/5493.html
I like translating it something like to "veer", as in to "veer off" a path or direction.
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Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago.
Timespans can be a bit tricky in prophecy.
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Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago.
You'd be making a grave mistake counting this number as literal. Just by way of obvious example: Daniel's 70 "weeks" (Daniel 9:24) is not about a year and a half.
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Timespans can be a bit tricky in prophecy.
Right. They are divine markers of demarcation, not literal periods in most cases. Context, parallels in other Scriptures, etc. need to be looked at.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal the word, and the glory of kings to search out the speech.
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Interesting.
Here's the Hebrew word from Daniel 12:11. It seems to mean a turning aside, so a departure, but also could means to be taken away. So it sounds like either meaning is possible.
http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/5493.html
I like translating it something like to "veer", as in to "veer off" a path or direction.
Thanks for that.
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You'd be making a grave mistake counting this number as literal. Just by way of obvious example: Daniel's 70 "weeks" (Daniel 9:24) is not about a year and a half.
Personally, I try to avoid interpreting Scripture outside of Church teaching which is what this thread is attempting to do. I think *that* is a grave mistake, and there seems to be an awful lot of that lately.
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Personally, I try to avoid interpreting Scripture outside of Church teaching which is what this thread is attempting to do. I think *that* is a grave mistake, and there seems to be an awful lot of that lately.
You're chasing a bogeyman that apparently haunts you. What I did here was merely make an observation about the Greek Septuagint that indeed someone else found interesting. I "interpreted" nothing. To the extent I offered "interpretation," it was St. Jerome's.
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You're chasing a bogeyman that apparently haunts you. What I did here was merely make an observation about the Greek Septuagint that indeed someone else found interesting. I "interpreted" nothing. To the extent I offered "interpretation," it was St. Jerome's.
Is your post interesting? Sure. But, given your comment to me that to interpret the time literally was a "grave mistake", you most certainly have interpreted the Scriptures as you see fit. Not to mention that you have a history of interpreting Scripture on this forum.
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Is your post interesting? Sure. But, given your comment to me that to interpret the time literally was a "grave mistake", you most certainly have interpreted the Scriptures as you see fit. Not to mention that you have a history of interpreting Scripture on this forum.
Ok. I pointed out that in the same book, Daniel's, 70 "weeks" is not literal weeks. So, yes, I would say that assuming the 1,290 was literal is a "grave mistake."
The "Church" has not interpreted the passage. In truth, the Church has not officially interpreted but a few passages of Scripture, and this is not one.
But . . . the bogeyman.
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Ok. I pointed out that in the same book, Daniel's, 70 "weeks" is not literal weeks. So, yes, I would say that assuming the 1,290 was literal is a "grave mistake."
The "Church" has not interpreted the passage. In truth, the Church has not officially interpreted but a few passages of Scripture, and this is not one.
But . . . the bogeyman.
No bogeyman DR. You have a penchant for interpreting Scripture as you see fit, and others have pointed that out in the past. I also never said that this particular passage was officially interpreted by the Church. My issue is that you have a history of posting about Scripture as if your interpretations are correct/should be heeded. That was shown in this thread by your telling me that it's a grave mistake for me to take it literally.
Anyway, I'm not going back and forth with you on this.
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Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago.
The Novus Ordo was invented decades ago. But the Novus Ordo and the TLM have existed in parallel since that time. The TLM has never been officially abrogated by the Church...YET.
This idea of a parallel existence is found in the root of the word used in the Septuagint (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parallax). This is referenced in DR's sentence "Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως."
When that official abrogation of the TLM occurs, which will be soon, that act, by Antipope Bergoglio, will trigger the beginning of the 1290 days. That official act will be the Abomination of Desolation.
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No bogeyman DR. You have a penchant for interpreting Scripture as you see fit, and others have pointed that out in the past. I also never said that this particular passage was officially interpreted by the Church. My issue is that you have a history of posting about Scripture as if your interpretations are correct/should be heeded. That was shown in this thread by your telling me that it's a grave mistake for me to take it literally.
Anyway, I'm not going back and forth with you on this.
Yes, Vermont, bogeyman. I've highlighted the key words in your response, "as if." You're reading that into any discussions I've made regarding Scripture, because you are indeed afraid of dealing with the scriptures on their own terms by looking closely at the language, comparing a verse with other relevant verses, drawing rational inferences, having reasonable discussions about the meaning of the divine revelation in the Bible . . . because you're afraid of being "Protestant." As the people of God, the Church, the Bible is our book and should be closely read and discussed. You have an irrational fear of that . . . the bogeyman.
Of course I think any argument I make, or any interpretation I offer, is true or supportable as truth, or else I wouldn't make it. I welcome arguments against, which should be weighed, as my interpretation, on their merits, on the strengths of the arguments.
I think that assuming the 1290 days of Daniel as literal is a grave mistake, and I pointed out an example why. I acknowledge that many do think it to be 1290 literal days, and we can discuss it. The Church has not interpreted it, and the discussion is not only permissible but I think commendable, as showing reverence for the Word of God and what He has revealed, which is of paramount importance to us, Catholics, God's people.
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The Novus Ordo was invented decades ago. But the Novus Ordo and the TLM have existed in parallel since that time. The TLM has never been officially abrogated by the Church...YET.
This idea of a parallel existence is found in the root of the word used in the Septuagint (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parallax). This is referenced in DR's sentence "Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως."
When that official abrogation of the TLM occurs, which will be soon, that act, by Antipope Bergoglio, will trigger the beginning of the 1290 days. That official act will be the Abomination of Desolation.
Angelus,
An interesting argument. I'll come back to it when I have more time.
For now, I note that the Greek word is not translated as "taken away," but "alteration change."
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I think that assuming the 1290 days of Daniel as literal is a grave mistake, and I pointed out an example why. I acknowledge that many do think it to be 1290 literal days, and we can discuss it. The Church has not interpreted it, and the discussion is not only permissible but I think commendable, as showing reverence for the Word of God and what He has revealed, which is of paramount importance to us, Catholics, God's people.
DR, here are the notes from Daniel 12 in the margins of the Original Douay-Rheims Bible:
Daniel 12:7
(e) A time ordinarily signifies one year and, as Chapter 4 v. 13, so here is signified the space of three years and a half, as [Daniel] ch. 7 and Apoc. 12 v. 14.
Daniel 12:11
(f) From the taking away of the daily sacrifice, and placing of the abomination (to wit, the practice of heresy) to desolation, that is, abolishing so much as is possible the holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to the end of that persecution shall be 1290 days.
Daniel 12:12
(g) Why 45 days are added to the former number, is marvelously obscure: neither may we presume among diverse expositions, to censure which seems most probable.
Daniel 12:13
(h) But we are content to go away with Daniel (v.9 and 13) without further searching the profound sense of these so high mysteries.
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Angelus,
An interesting argument. I'll come back to it when I have more time.
For now, I note that the Greek word is not translated as "taken away," but "alteration change."
Instead of "alteration change," which is vague, I believe the language is suggesting that the TLM will be taken away, as Jerome says and it will (finally!) be OFFICIALLY replaced with its counterfeit alternative, the Novus Ordo.
In other words, there will not be a time when "the Mass" will not be said in "Catholic" churches. No, the Novus Ordo (the counterfeit of the Mass) will not end. The Novus Ordo will not be "taken away." Only the TLM will be "taken away." And all people will be able to find in official "Catholic" churches is the Novus Ordo abomination.
The only place that the TLM, the real Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, will be found will be in non-official "refuge" Churches.
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DR, here are the notes from Daniel 12 in the margins of the Original Douay-Rheims Bible:
Daniel 12:7
(e) A time ordinarily signifies one year and, as Chapter 4 v. 13, so here is signified the space of three years and a half, as [Daniel] ch. 7 and Apoc. 12 v. 14.
Daniel 12:11
(f) From the taking away of the daily sacrifice, and placing of the abomination (to wit, the practice of heresy) to desolation, that is, abolishing so much as is possible the holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to the end of that persecution shall be 1290 days.
Daniel 12:12
(g) Why 45 days are added to the former number, is marvelously obscure: neither may we presume among diverse expositions, to censure which seems most probable.
Daniel 12:13
(h) But we are content to go away with Daniel (v.9 and 13) without further searching the profound sense of these so high mysteries.
I anyone wants to check the above against the original, here it is:
https://archive.org/details/1610A.d.DouayOldTestament1582A.d.RheimsNewTestament_176/page/n1775/mode/2up
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DR, here are the notes from Daniel 12 in the margins of the Original Douay-Rheims Bible:
Daniel 12:7
(e) A time ordinarily signifies one year and, as Chapter 4 v. 13, so here is signified the space of three years and a half, as [Daniel] ch. 7 and Apoc. 12 v. 14.
Daniel 12:11
(f) From the taking away of the daily sacrifice, and placing of the abomination (to wit, the practice of heresy) to desolation, that is, abolishing so much as is possible the holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to the end of that persecution shall be 1290 days.
Daniel 12:12
(g) Why 45 days are added to the former number, is marvelously obscure: neither may we presume among diverse expositions, to censure which seems most probable.
Daniel 12:13
(h) But we are content to go away with Daniel (v.9 and 13) without further searching the profound sense of these so high mysteries.
Yes, I am aware of that. I have a copy of it.
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Instead of "alteration change," which is vague, I believe the language is suggesting that the TLM will be taken away, as Jerome says and it will (finally!) be OFFICIALLY replaced with its counterfeit alternative, the Novus Ordo.
In other words, there will not be a time when "the Mass" will not be said in "Catholic" churches. No, the Novus Ordo (the counterfeit of the Mass) will not end. The Novus Ordo will not be "taken away." Only the TLM will be "taken away." And all people will be able to find in official "Catholic" churches is the Novus Ordo abomination.
The only place that the TLM, the real Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, will be found will be in non-official "refuge" Churches.
Does St. Jerome say that? I'm not aware of that. I posted the excerpt from him where he says, "he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well." Thus, agreeing with the Greek.
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In this context, I again bring to everyone's attention the prophecy of Marie-Julie Jahenny:
Marie-Julie Jahenny on the "Second Celebration" (the Novus Ordo)
Ecstasy July 21, 1881
"The Church will suffer the most cruel persecutions which hell has never yet invented.
"Soon, in large parts of this land of the dead, there will be no sanctuaries. The apostles will have fled. The holy souls weep over the ruins and abandonment; See how much they insult Me and how much they offend Me ... There will be a relentless hellish (attack) against the devotion to the Sacred Heart. "
"There will be a book of the 'second celebration' by the infamous spirits who have crucified Me anew and who await the reign of a new Messiah to make them happy. Many holy priests will refuse this book sealed with the words of the abyss, but unfortunately there are who will accept it, and it will be used."
"The Bishops betray. They will give their strength and their life to the fatal government."
"Today, I, Creator, God, I lose all the authority of My Powers. Today, I am the most despised and regarded as the most incapable of men."
"In a short time, on the threatened earth that is no longer strong, because the blasphemies that have shaken it, the iniquities and crimes have separated it piece by piece, in a short time on French soil, I will no longer be recognized; My adorable dignity will be desecrated. They will (do more to Me than on the day of My Passion); (then) they had given Me anything but a scarlet robe. Before the century is over, long before, they will have covered Me in all sorts of insults. The religion that I had established, the Gospel that I preached, all this, they will tear apart under an appalling form, to make trembling, and they will throw all these infamous things on My shoulders and all over My Adorable Body. They will change My sufferings and My plaints of My Passion, in writings that will shake the heart of the righteous and their peaks will crack pain, as the mountain, on the day of My Crucifixion. Before the year which bears a figure of consolation to My French people, before that epoch is sounded, the holy sacrifices of the altars will have taken an infernal form."
"In the streets, in cities, in the countryside and in all villages, the infectious poison of those cursed books will spread with an immensity and with a rapidity hotter than the sun's path, from sunrise to sunset."
Ecstasy date November 27, 1901. (NOTE: Other sources say this prophecy was given in 1902)
Our Lord to Marie-Julie Jahenny:
“I give you a warning even today. The disciples who are not of My Holy Gospel are now in a great work of the mind to form as the second facsimiles when they will make to their idea and under the influence of the enemy of souls, a Mass that contains words odious in My sight.
When the fatal hour arrives when they will put to the test the Faith of My eternal priesthood, it is these sheets that they will give to celebrate in this last period. The first period, it is that of My priesthood which exists since (or after) Me. The second, is the period of persecution when the enemies of the Faith and of Holy Religion have formulated - and they are strongly enforced - these sheets as the book of the second celebration, these infamous spirits (or, infamous minds) are those who crucified Me and who are waiting for the reign of the new Messiah to make them happy."
"Many of My holy priests will refuse this book sealed with the words of the abyss. Unfortunately, (they) will be the exception, it will be used."
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In this context, I again bring to everyone's attention the prophecy of Marie-Julie Jahenny:
Marie-Julie Jahenny on the "Second Celebration" (the Novus Ordo)
Ecstasy July 21, 1881
"The Church will suffer the most cruel persecutions which hell has never yet invented.
"Soon, in large parts of this land of the dead, there will be no sanctuaries. The apostles will have fled. The holy souls weep over the ruins and abandonment; See how much they insult Me and how much they offend Me ... There will be a relentless hellish (attack) against the devotion to the Sacred Heart. "
"There will be a book of the 'second celebration' by the infamous spirits who have crucified Me anew and who await the reign of a new Messiah to make them happy. Many holy priests will refuse this book sealed with the words of the abyss, but unfortunately there are who will accept it, and it will be used."
"The Bishops betray. They will give their strength and their life to the fatal government."
"Today, I, Creator, God, I lose all the authority of My Powers. Today, I am the most despised and regarded as the most incapable of men."
"In a short time, on the threatened earth that is no longer strong, because the blasphemies that have shaken it, the iniquities and crimes have separated it piece by piece, in a short time on French soil, I will no longer be recognized; My adorable dignity will be desecrated. They will (do more to Me than on the day of My Passion); (then) they had given Me anything but a scarlet robe. Before the century is over, long before, they will have covered Me in all sorts of insults. The religion that I had established, the Gospel that I preached, all this, they will tear apart under an appalling form, to make trembling, and they will throw all these infamous things on My shoulders and all over My Adorable Body. They will change My sufferings and My plaints of My Passion, in writings that will shake the heart of the righteous and their peaks will crack pain, as the mountain, on the day of My Crucifixion. Before the year which bears a figure of consolation to My French people, before that epoch is sounded, the holy sacrifices of the altars will have taken an infernal form."
"In the streets, in cities, in the countryside and in all villages, the infectious poison of those cursed books will spread with an immensity and with a rapidity hotter than the sun's path, from sunrise to sunset."
Ecstasy date November 27, 1901. (NOTE: Other sources say this prophecy was given in 1902)
Our Lord to Marie-Julie Jahenny:
“I give you a warning even today. The disciples who are not of My Holy Gospel are now in a great work of the mind to form as the second facsimiles when they will make to their idea and under the influence of the enemy of souls, a Mass that contains words odious in My sight.
When the fatal hour arrives when they will put to the test the Faith of My eternal priesthood, it is these sheets that they will give to celebrate in this last period. The first period, it is that of My priesthood which exists since (or after) Me. The second, is the period of persecution when the enemies of the Faith and of Holy Religion have formulated - and they are strongly enforced - these sheets as the book of the second celebration, these infamous spirits (or, infamous minds) are those who crucified Me and who are waiting for the reign of the new Messiah to make them happy."
"Many of My holy priests will refuse this book sealed with the words of the abyss. Unfortunately, (they) will be the exception, it will be used."
Of all the prophecies I've come across, MJJ is the only one who explicitly describes Vatican II. For this reason alone, she stands out and is worthy of being hearkened to.
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Personally, I try to avoid interpreting Scripture outside of Church teaching which is what this thread is attempting to do. I think *that* is a grave mistake, and there seems to be an awful lot of that lately.
That makes no sense, then we shouldn't read the Bible because we "might accidentally interpret Scripture". You can't even point out how this post is violating Church teaching. Sorry, but you being uncomfortable by someone theorizing about a passage is irrelevant.
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Does St. Jerome say that? I'm not aware of that. I posted the excerpt from him where he says, "he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well." Thus, agreeing with the Greek.
What I meant was that Jerome used the phrase "taken away" (Latin ablatum (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ablatus#Latin)) in Daniel 12:11. I think that Jerome was emphasizing the final, decisive abolition of the TLM in Daniel 12:11.
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What I meant was that Jerome used the phrase "taken away" (Latin ablatum (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ablatus#Latin)) in Daniel 12:11. I think that Jerome was emphasizing the final, decisive abolition of the TLM in Daniel 12:11.
Ok. You meant the Vulgate translation, not his commentary on Daniel. Got it.
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That makes no sense, then we shouldn't read the Bible because we "might accidentally interpret Scripture". You can't even point out how this post is violating Church teaching. Sorry, but you being uncomfortable by someone theorizing about a passage is irrelevant.
You clearly missed my point as well. In addition, you are probably not aware of DR's long posting history wrt Scripture interpretations.
The issue was not that the post was violating Church teaching (because I didn't think that it did) and I never said DR's interpretation is wrong.
The issue is that DR had an issue with my using a different, literal interpretation of Daniel when I questioned the timing of the NO changes (given the Church has NOT officially interpreted it).
It is interesting that Angelus has since found Catholic Biblical Commentary which speaks to a literal interpretation of the Scripture in question, so perhaps the Church's interpretation is a literal one after all...but I'll have to look closer at that.
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DR, here are the notes from Daniel 12 in the margins of the Original Douay-Rheims Bible:
Daniel 12:7
(e) A time ordinarily signifies one year and, as Chapter 4 v. 13, so here is signified the space of three years and a half, as [Daniel] ch. 7 and Apoc. 12 v. 14.
Daniel 12:11
(f) From the taking away of the daily sacrifice, and placing of the abomination (to wit, the practice of heresy) to desolation, that is, abolishing so much as is possible the holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to the end of that persecution shall be 1290 days.
Daniel 12:12
(g) Why 45 days are added to the former number, is marvelously obscure: neither may we presume among diverse expositions, to censure which seems most probable.
Daniel 12:13
(h) But we are content to go away with Daniel (v.9 and 13) without further searching the profound sense of these so high mysteries.
Thank you Angelus.
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You clearly missed my point as well. In addition, you are probably not aware of DR's long posting history wrt Scripture interpretations.
The issue was not that the post was violating Church teaching (because I didn't think that it did) and I never said DR's interpretation is wrong.
The issue is that DR had an issue with my using a different, literal interpretation of Daniel when I questioned the timing of the NO changes (given the Church has NOT officially interpreted it).
It is interesting that Angelus has since found Catholic Biblical Commentary which speaks to a literal interpretation of the Scripture in question, so perhaps the Church's interpretation is a literal one after all...but I'll have to look closer at that.
I had no "issue." I said you would be "gravely mistaken" in my view, again giving a reason why. The same reason would apply to the original Rheims annotation in this instance - I think it "gravely mistaken."
Now, anticipating some "nonsense" about how I'm acting "Protestant" - the bogeyman - by disagreeing with the annotation in the original Rheims, I'll give you a rather prominent example.
Father Herman Bernard Kramer wrote a book that many Catholics around here think very worthy, and they agree with his interpretation of the Apocalypse. The book is called, The Book of Destiny. In that book, Fr. Kramer writes:
Verse four [of Rev. 20:4] is impossible of logical interpretation for those who place the thousand years chronologically ahead of the reign of Antichrist, because its contents are a positive contradiction of that theory.
What do the original Rheims commentators have to say about Rev. 20:4 and the "thousand years," also mentioned in Rev. 20:2? Well, as to 20:4, they quote St. Augustine, who believed the "thousand years" to be "the time of the Church militant," i.e., the whole Gospel Age of the Church, and specifically provide their own annotation of the "thousand years" in the annotation on Rev. 20:2:
Original Rheims annotation - 2. Bound him. ] Christ by his Passion hath abridged the power of the Devil for a thousand years, that is, the whole time of the new Testament, until Antichrist's time, when he shall be loosed again, that is, be permitted to deceive the world, but for a short time only, to wit, three years and a half.
That is, they put the 1,000 years "ahead of the reign of Antichrist" (Kramer).
Now, Fr. Kramer doesn't say the Rheims annotators are "gravely mistaken." He says they hold an interpretation that is "impossible of logical interpretation," and that the contents of Scripture reveal the Rheims's annotators' position to be a "positive contradiction" to Scripture. I'll let you all judge whether that is worse than "gravely mistaken."
In any event, Fr. Kramer "disagrees" with the Rheims annotators. Is he a heretic? Is he acting "Protestant" for arguing an "interpretation" contrary to the Rheims fathers?
I have no "issue" with Fr. Kramer, but find him "gravely mistaken," as in this instance, I agree with the Rheims fathers - who Fr. Kramer finds, let us say, at least "gravely mistaken."
Some of us, including Fr. Kramer, have no issue with reading and discussing the meaning of Scripture, even if we disagree with other Catholics, whose interpretation we might find "gravely mistaken" or "impossible of logical interpretation" or even a "positive contradiction" of Scripture.
Some of us Catholics don't have a fear of your bogeyman, Vermont.
Amen.
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DR, to get back to your very insightful original point, Daniel is suggesting BOTH "an alteration" AND something that ends in the attempted "taking away" of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The first step was to allow the setup of the "alternate," the counterfeit "mass", the Novus Ordo (this stage ends in 1969).
The second step was to allow both the partisans of the counterfeit and the partisans of the true Mass to go to battle in the Church so that Catholics would self-select into categories of wheat vs tares. (this stage has taken a little over 5 decades).
The third step is for the tares (the false brethren) to persecute the wheat during the final tribulation of the faithful. This final persecution is overseen by the False Prophet/Antichrist (3.5 years)
The above is God's providential plan to both reveal and purge the Elect in the end times. God wanted those steps to happen, so that those who love Him will have a chance to follow Him in His Passion. It is a beautiful thing. Just a few more years left.
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DR, to get back to your very insightful original point, Daniel is suggesting BOTH "an alteration" that ends in the attempted "taking away" of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The first step was to allow the setup of the "alternate," the counterfeit "mass", the Novus Ordo (this stage ends in 1969).
The second step was to allow both the partisans of the counterfeit and of the true Mass to go to battle in the Church so that Catholics would self-select into categories of wheat vs tares. (this stage has taken a little over 5 decades).
The third step is for the tares (the false brethren) to persecute the wheat during the final tribulation of the faithful. This final persecution is overseen by the False Prophet/Antichrist (3.5 years)
The above is God's providential plan to both reveal and purge the Elect in the end times. God wanted those steps to happen, so that those who love Him will have a chance to follow Him in His Passion. It is a beautiful thing. Just a few more years left.
Angelus,
There is much agreement between us. I think we agree on the broad outline. As to the "refining," we certainly agree:
Zacharius (Zechariah) 13
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that cleaveth to me, saith the Lord of hosts: strike the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand to the little ones.
Framea, suscitare super pastorem meum, et super virum cohaerentem mihi, dicit Dominus exercituum : percute pastorem, et dispergentur oves : et convertam manum meam ad parvulos.
8 And there shall be in all the earth, saith the Lord, two parts in it shall be scattered, and shall perish: but the third part shall be left therein.
Et erunt in omni terra, dicit Dominus : partes duae in ea dispergentur, et deficient : et tertia pars relinquetur in ea.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.
Et ducam tertiam partem per ignem, et uram eos sicut uritur argentum, et probabo eos sicut probatur aurum. Ipse vocabit nomen meum, et ego exaudiam eum. Dicam : Populus meus es : et ipse dicet : Dominus Deus meus.
https://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/43013.htm
I'll comment more on your specific view and some differences when I have some more time to get into that "heavy" matter.
But let me ask you, do you believe Francis to be the Antichrist? I don't want to take issue with that - I might even agree with it - but because I find it relevant to the issue of the timeline, the 1290 days of Daniel, etc. and whether it's literal.
I believe many who think the 1290 literal also believe the Antichrist's reign to be commensurate with it, also a period of literally 1260 days or "time and times and a half" elsewhere mentioned. So they think the cessation of the sacrifice and the period of the Antichrist to be the same or very similar literal periods.
I take it you would not believe the time period of the reign of Antichrist to be 3 and 1/2 years. Bergolio's reign has been longer. You probably just view the cessation of the sacrifice to be for that period.
Maybe I'll get into that in more detail when I have time.
Thanks,
DR
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The Novus Ordo was invented decades ago. But the Novus Ordo and the TLM have existed in parallel since that time. The TLM has never been officially abrogated by the Church...YET.
Well, Jorge could be said to have abolished it on July 16, 2021 (Traditionis Custodes). If you add a literal 1290 days to that, you get January 26, 2025.
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Angelus,
There is much agreement between us. I think we agree on the broad outline. As to the "refining," we certainly agree:
I'll comment more on your specific view and some differences when I have some more time to get into that "heavy" matter.
But let me ask you, do you believe Francis to be the Antichrist? I don't want to take issue with that - I might even agree with it - but because I find it relevant to the issue of the timeline, the 1290 days of Daniel, etc. and whether it's literal.
I believe many who think the 1290 literal also believe the Antichrist's reign to be commensurate with it, also a period of literally 1260 days or "time and times and a half" elsewhere mentioned. So they think the cessation of the sacrifice and the period of the Antichrist to be the same or very similar literal periods.
I take it you would not believe the time period of the reign of Antichrist to be 3 and 1/2 years. Bergolio's reign has been longer. You probably just view the cessation of the sacrifice to be for that period.
Maybe I'll get into that in more detail when I have time.
Thanks,
DR
Yes, I am morally certain that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the Antichrist prophesied in Sacred Scripture and discussed by all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. However, there is a riddle to be discussed.
No, I do not believe that the "reign of the Antichrist" will be longer than 3.5 years. And the essence of the riddle is discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 relative to the "katechon" (restrainer) and "operation of error." The Antichrist has been hiding in plain sight, but he has not been "reigning" during that entire time.
1. WHO HE IS: The Antichrist is a deceiver. He is the False Prophet. He doesn't come out and tell everyone, "Hey, I'm the Antichrist." As Apocalypse 13:11 says, "he had two horns [a bishop's mitre] like a lamb [dressed in papal white] and spoke like a dragon [possessed by Satan]." Most nominal Catholics think Bergoglio is the Vicar of Christ but he's actually the Antichrist. People who follow that man are under the spell of "the operation of error" at the moment. Eventually that "spell" will be broken and they will see the truth.
2. WHEN HIS REIGN BEGINS: I think 2 Thessalonians 2:7's discussion of the katechon (the restrainer) is related to when his "reign" starts in God's eyes. I think the beginning of his "reign" is most likely after BXVI's death, meaning that BXVI was the katechon. Although it could be that his "reign" starts after the abomination of desolation is "set up," meaning when the TLM is officially abrogated, in which case the traditional Mass is the katechon. I don't know for sure.
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Well, Jorge could be said to have abolished it on July 16, 2021 (Traditionis Custodes). If you add a literal 1290 days to that, you get January 26, 2025.
I don't rule out the promulgation of Traditiones Custodes (or the Vatican dubia related to it in December 2021) as the beginning of "the taking away of the Sacrifice." Very well could be.
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Yes, I am morally certain that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the Antichrist prophesied in Sacred Scripture and discussed by all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. However, there is a riddle to be discussed.
No, I do not believe that the "reign of the Antichrist" will be longer than 3.5 years. And the essence of the riddle is discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 relative to the "katechon" (restrainer) and "operation of error." The Antichrist has been hiding in plain sight, but he has not been "reigning" during that entire time.
1. WHO HE IS: The Antichrist is a deceiver. He is the False Prophet. He doesn't come out and tell everyone, "Hey, I'm the Antichrist." As Apocalypse 13:11 says, "he had two horns [a bishop's mitre] like a lamb [dressed in papal white] and spoke like a dragon [possessed by Satan]." Most nominal Catholics think Bergoglio is the Vicar of Christ but he's actually the Antichrist. People who follow that man are under the spell of "the operation of error" at the moment. Eventually that "spell" will be broken and they will see the truth.
2. WHEN HIS REIGN BEGINS: I think 2 Thessalonians 2:7's discussion of the katechon (the restrainer) is related to when his "reign" starts in God's eyes. I think the beginning of his "reign" is most likely after BXVI's death, meaning that BXVI was the katechon. Although it could be that his "reign" starts after the abomination of desolation is "set up," meaning when the TLM is officially abrogated, in which case the traditional Mass is the katechon. I don't know for sure.
It should be apparent by now that I do not believe the 1290 days - or 1260 days, etc. - involved in prophecy to be literal. I think the clock for the non-literal period - of course it is a period of time, a discernible and identified block of time set off from the rest of time - begins to run when the "katechon" is removed:
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.
With Cardinal Manning, I would call this Christendom, the Church with its head (the pope) in power over the spiritual condition of mankind. When this is "taken out of the way," i.e., the Church loses that power and authority (which of course requires the loss of the pope), as I said, the clock begins running.
I see that as having happened after Vatican II, though hard to pinpoint. Since I don't think the period is literal, a precise counting is not necessary: it's a block of time near the end. There are numerous markers - the Novus Ordo institution, the change of the NO's vernacular celebration to abandoning the "pro multis" and replacing with "for all," the rejection of the necessity of explicit faith in Christ in JPII's catechism, Redemptoris Missio, Assisi, most recently pachamama in St. Peter's - a cuмulation of signs that is overwhelming IMO. The end period has been triggered, I think clearly. Perhaps God gives us a cuмulation so that, for each of us and suited to each of us, one of these things can be for each of us respectively what causes "sight" -
Matthew 24:15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. 16 Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains
We've had Catholics "fleeing" at some of the above-referenced events for decades now, "coming out" of the Whore (Apocalypse 18:4) for decades. Which is why, again, I don't think this is a literal 1290 day period.
Thanks for the discussion, Angelus. I'll come back with more later - do the same.
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I like the Biblical analysis here,
but I fail to see in what way Bergoglio
has deceived the elect?
Satan already has the libs in the bag. He doesn't need to deceive them.
No, he wants to deceive the elect so he can claim the whole world for himself.
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It should be apparent by now that I do not believe the 1290 days - or 1260 days, etc. - involved in prophecy to be literal. I think the clock for the non-literal period - of course it is a period of time, a discernible and identified block of time set off from the rest of time - begins to run when the "katechon" is removed:
With Cardinal Manning, I would call this Christendom, the Church with its head (the pope) in power over the spiritual condition of mankind. When this is "taken out of the way," i.e., the Church loses that power and authority (which of course requires the loss of the pope), as I said, the clock begins running.
I see that as having happened after Vatican II, though hard to pinpoint. Since I don't think the period is literal, a precise counting is not necessary: it's a block of time near the end. There are numerous markers - the Novus Ordo institution, the change of the NO's vernacular celebration to abandoning the "pro multis" and replacing with "for all," the rejection of the necessity of explicit faith in Christ in JPII's catechism, Redemptoris Missio, Assisi, most recently pachamama in St. Peter's - a cuмulation of signs that is overwhelming IMO. The end period has been triggered, I think clearly. Perhaps God gives us a cuмulation so that, for each of us and suited to each of us, one of these things can be for each of us respectively what causes "sight" -
We've had Catholics "fleeing" at some of the above-referenced events for decades now, "coming out" of the Whore (Apocalypse 18:4) for decades. Which is why, again, I don't think this is a literal 1290 day period.
Thanks for the discussion, Angelus. I'll come back with more later - do the same.
DR, I don't disagree with your second paragraph, but we disagree when you say in your third paragraph that we cannot "pinpoint" things more precisely than what you described. The reason I disagree with you on that is Biblical and specifically because of my interpretation of Daniel.
Read Daniel chapter 7. In that chapter we find the genealogy of "the Beast from the Sea" (7 heads, 10 horns). That Beast of the Sea represents the Vatican City-State, constituted under the Lateran Treaty of 1929. The 7 heads start with Pius XI going through Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, JPI, JPII, BXVI. They are sequential. They are all lawfully-elected Popes (whatever you think of their orthodoxy).
Then we get to Bergoglio. He is not a lawfully-elected Pope. He is a usurper. He is the head of the 10 horns. The 10 horns is the Council of Cardinal Advisors that made a deal to share power when they "elected" Bergoglio. Bergoglio is the "little horn" that asserts himself above the original group and eliminates three of the original members (Cardinal Pell and the other two Cardinals).
Daniel Chapter 7 describes it this way:
7 After this I beheld in the vision of the night, and lo, a fourth beast, terrible and wonderful, and exceeding strong, it had great iron teeth, eating and breaking in pieces, and treading down the rest with its feet: and it was unlike to the other beasts which I had seen before it, and had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold another little horn sprung out of the midst of them: and three of the first horns were plucked up at the presence thereof: and behold eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.
This "little horn" that comes out of the 10 horns (the usurping Cardinals) is called in the Apocalypse "the eighth [king] who is of the seven but goes to perdition." This is Bergoglio. He is also called "the Beast from the Earth" in Apocalypse 13. The final, fully-formed, counterfeit Church is described in Apocalypse 17 in this way:
7 ...I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast which carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 7 The beast, which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit, and go into destruction: and the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was, and is not. 9 And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings: 10 Five are fallen [PXI, PXII, JXXIII, PVI, JPI], one is [JPII], and the other is not yet come [BXVI]: and when he is come, he must remain a short time. 11 And the beast which was, and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction [the son of perdition=Bergoglio]. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest, are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but shall receive power as kings one hour after the beast. 13 These have one design: and their strength and power they shall deliver to the beast.
The reason the "five are fallen" line is mentioned is to explain when "the beast from the Earth," the False Prophet, the Antichrist, comes onto the scene. Bergoglio was made a bishop and a Cardinal during JPII's pontificate. He, Bergoglio, is "the eighth" in appearance, but he is not a true pope and actually only a Cardinal with no real papal authority. This is why Daniel says, that this ten-horned Beast is "unlike to the other beasts which I had seen before." The 7 heads are 7 kings (monarch/Popes). The 10 Horns is an oligarchy or an aristocracy of those Cardinals who were supposed to share power after the 2013 fake conclave.
Now, if you have followed me this far, let me try to sum up. The problems in the Roman Catholic Church start before Vatican II. The errors begin to slowly take over starting, at least, with Pius XI. But the progression is gradual. So, I'm not claiming that all was well before Bergoglio takes over. No, "the Beast from the Sea" the corrupt Vatican hierarchy (caused by the Freemasonic infiltration) is growing since 1929. But the culmination of that process does not occur until we get to the "Beast from the Earth," the False Prophet, the Antichrist, the Little Horn, Bergoglio.
I will stop here for now. Do you agree that Daniel and the Apocalypse are describing this decades long deterioration of the Church with the image of the Beast from the Sea? Do you see how the Little Horn arises out of the Fourth and last Beast, the Beast that is "unlike to the other Beasts," whose head is "the Beast from the Earth." Do you see that this is an historical account of the different regimes of the Vatican City-State up to our time, ending with Bergoglio as the apex of evil?
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The 7 heads start with Pius XI going through Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, JPI, JPII, BXVI. They are sequential. They are all lawfully-elected Popes (whatever you think of their orthodoxy).
Lawfully elected?
What am I not understanding here?
Bull of Pope Paul IV — cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio, 1559
“Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define:
— “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void.
— “It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all.
— “Such promotion or election, shall not through any lapse of tune in the foregoing situation, be considered even partially legitimate in any way . . .
— “Each and all of the words, as acts, laws, appointments of those so promoted or elected —and indeed, whatsoever flows therefrom — shall be lacking in force, and shall grant no stability and legal power to anyone whatsoever.
— “Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”
Coronata — Institutions Juris Canonici, 1950
“Appointment to the Office of the Primacy.
1. What is required by divine law for this appointment . . . Also required for validity is that the one elected be a member of the Church; hence, heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are excluded. . . ”
“It cannot be proven however that the Roman Pontiff, as a private teacher, cannot become a heretic — if, for example, he would contumaciously deny a previously defined dogma. Such impeccability was never promised by God. Indeed, Pope Innocent III expressly admits such a case is possible.
“If indeed such a situation would happen, he [the Roman Pontiff] would, by divine law, fall from office without any sentence, indeed, without even a declaratory one. He who openly professes heresy places himself outside the Church, and it is not likely that Christ would preserve the Primacy of His Church in one so unworthy. Wherefore, if the Roman Pontiff were to profess heresy, before any condemnatory sentence (which would be impossible anyway) he would lose his authority.”
Also, consider that Mar-a-lago means sea to lake.
Beast from the sea to lake of fire maybe?
Also consider that Trump deceived all nations with pharmakeia...
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I like the Biblical analysis here,
but I fail to see in what way Bergoglio
has deceived the elect?
Satan already has the libs in the bag. He doesn't need to deceive them.
No, he wants to deceive the elect so he can claim the whole world for himself.
Miser, "the elect" are faithful Catholics. All but a very tiny number of faithful Catholics think Bergoglio is "the Pope." So those "elect" are already deceived. And the deceptions are just getting warmed up.
Next in line will be Bergoglio's peace plan that will "save the world" from a nuclear h0Ɩ0cαųst. Then, using his credibility as savior of the world, he will impose a doctrine of wokist toleration on the Church, which all but a few will call "the Catholic Church."
He is not going to claim "the whole world for himself." The world is going to fall at his feet as worship him and his teaching as the savior for humanity. He will teach that man must get to work and save himself, not wait from some messiah and his Second Coming.
Here is what he said last week:
https://www.telam.com.ar/notas/202310/643468-pope-francis-war-is-the-great-enemy-of-the-universal-dialogue-that-we-need.html
- Your trips usually display purpose, important topics to delve into, and closeness to the people, which is coherent with your idea of transformations demanding the commitment from powerful leaders but also from individualities. When we see far-right forces expanding, a feeling of frustration or disappointment toward politics and people expressing that in the ballot box, do you see these crises as momentary or long-lasting? What can be done to overturn them?
- I like the word “crisis” because it contains inner movement. Yet, the only way out from a crisis is upward, there is no easy way out. The way out is upward and never on our own. Those who intend to emerge alone from a crisis, turn the way out into a labyrinth that goes round and round. A crisis is a labyrinth. Also, a crisis makes you grow. Whether it’s a person, a family, a country or a civilization in crisis, if it is solved well, there is growth.
I’m concerned when problems turn to themselves and there seems to be no way out. We must teach young boys and girls to be able to manage a crisis. To solve a crisis. Because that instills maturity. We were all unexperienced young people once, and sometimes young boys and girls hold onto miracles, to a messiah, to things being solved in a messianic way. There is only one Messiah who saved us all. The rest are all clowns of messianism. None of them can promise a solution to conflicts, unless it’s emerging upward from the crisis. And never on our own. Let’s think of any kind of political crisis, in a country that doesn’t know what to do, there are many in Europe. What can be done? Shall we look for a messiah to come save us? No. We must find where the conflict is and solve it. There is wisdom is the management of a crisis. But you can’t move forward without a conflict.
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Miser, "the elect" are faithful Catholics. All but a very tiny number of faithful Catholics think Bergoglio is "the Pope." So those "elect" are already deceived. And, the deceptions are just getting warmed up.
Sorry, but the elect can easily see that Bergoglio is NOT Catholic nor pope.
It's not rocket science.
They are also not deceived by the VII religion and easily recognize that Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict who all promoted the Freemasonic ONE World Chrislamic Religion are not Catholic and have LEFT the Church.
Those who cannot see this are deceived.
So Satan already has them in the bag.
Now he has to set his sites on those who do not believe in the ONE world religion.
This includes those who have been deceived to believe that Benedict is somehow "traditional" and "rigid" when he is just as much an apostate as Bergog.
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Sorry, but the elect can easily see that Bergoglio is NOT Catholic nor pope.
It's not rocket science.
They are also not deceived by the VII religion and easily recognize that Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict who all promoted the Freemasonic ONE World Chrislamic Religion are not Catholic and have LEFT the Church.
Those who cannot see this are deceived.
So Satan already has them in the bag.
Now he has to set his sites on those who do not believe in the ONE world religion.
This includes those who have been deceived to believe that Benedict is somehow "traditional" and "rigid" when he is just as much an apostate as Bergog.
So, you would say that those involved in the SSPX and the Resistance "can easily see that Bergoglio is not Catholic nor pope." Or do you exclude all of those people from your definition of "the Elect."
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So, you would say that those involved in the SSPX and the Resistance "can easily see that Bergoglio is not Catholic nor pope." Or do you exclude all of those people from your definition of "the Elect."
Well, I can't judge the interior forum or who will actually suffer eternal damnation,
that is up to God.
However, anyone who thinks that Bergoglio is actually a Catholic or a pope is either completely ignorant or deceived.
BUT
the same goes for Benedict:
The Heresies of Benedict XVI
https://youtu.be/rkPiaS1z6Vs
and those involved in Cath INC
who pretend to be learned about the goings on of the Vatican and papal elections
are either deceivers covering for him
or too woefully ignorant to be worthy of any public platform.
Any second grade First Communicant could tell you
THAT MAN AIN'T CATHOLIC! :)
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Yes, I am morally certain that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the Antichrist prophesied in Sacred Scripture and discussed by all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
No.
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... BXVI was the katechon.
:facepalm:
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Don't forget about eastern Catholic rites/mass
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Next in line will be Bergoglio's peace plan that will "save the world" from a nuclear h0Ɩ0cαųst.
Well, Vigano, the Great Prophet, has prophesized several times over the last few years
that Trump
will negotiate a "peace deal" with Putin
that will bring forth a
PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE
where one nation will not be more powerful than another.
Those are loaded words.
This is the doctrine of Marxist Leninist policy, Stalin, the United Nations,
and Freemasons:
CoeXisT
Posted on September 16, 2012 (https://freemasoninformation.com/bee-hive/coexist/) by Fred Milliken (https://freemasoninformation.com/author/beehive/) | 20 Comments (https://freemasoninformation.com/bee-hive/coexist/#comments)
The Level is the one symbol that distinguishes Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ very differently from all other organizations and societies in the world and has the potential to make it a world leader in advocating peace. There is no Masonic distinction or division of religion, race, wealth, title or political persuasion. All Masons are equal in stature and operate on the level. Masons seek to share what they have in common and keep away from that which divides them.
See more here:
https://freemasoninformation.com/bee-hive/coexist/
(https://i.imgur.com/VFcpF0p.png)
Here the Embassy of the People's Republic of China in the Islamic Republic of Iran explain further:
The Five Principles of Peaceful Co-Existence Stand Stronger
2014-06-29 13:29
The Five Principles of Peaceful Co-Existence are: mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, mutual non-aggression, non- interference in each other's internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit, and peaceful coexistence.
http://ir.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/dtxw/201407/t20140702_1894012.htm#:~:text=The%20Five%20Principles%20of%20Peaceful%20Co%2DExistence%20are%3A%20mutual%20respect,mutual%20benefit%2C%20and%20peaceful%20coexistence.
This dovetails with Trump and Putin who have been slated by the Sanhedrin to rebuild the Third Temple which several of the Church Fathers declared was a sure sign of the Antichrist:
https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/trump-and-putin-slated-to-build-third-temple/msg854323/#msg854323
This was the plan for the "state" of Israel (rather than the people of Israel) from the beginning:
(https://i.imgur.com/4sEpSNX.png)
A nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr
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DR, I don't disagree with your second paragraph, but we disagree when you say in your third paragraph that we cannot "pinpoint" things more precisely than what you described. The reason I disagree with you on that is Biblical and specifically because of my interpretation of Daniel.
Read Daniel chapter 7. In that chapter we find the genealogy of "the Beast from the Sea" (7 heads, 10 horns). That Beast of the Sea represents the Vatican City-State, constituted under the Lateran Treaty of 1929. The 7 heads start with Pius XI going through Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, JPI, JPII, BXVI. They are sequential. They are all lawfully-elected Popes (whatever you think of their orthodoxy).
Then we get to Bergoglio. He is not a lawfully-elected Pope. He is a usurper. He is the head of the 10 horns. The 10 horns is the Council of Cardinal Advisors that made a deal to share power when they "elected" Bergoglio. Bergoglio is the "little horn" that asserts himself above the original group and eliminates three of the original members (Cardinal Pell and the other two Cardinals).
Daniel Chapter 7 describes it this way:
This "little horn" that comes out of the 10 horns (the usurping Cardinals) is called in the Apocalypse "the eighth [king] who is of the seven but goes to perdition." This is Bergoglio. He is also called "the Beast from the Earth" in Apocalypse 13. The final, fully-formed, counterfeit Church is described in Apocalypse 17 in this way:
The reason the "five are fallen" line is mentioned is to explain when "the beast from the Earth," the False Prophet, the Antichrist, comes onto the scene. Bergoglio was made a bishop and a Cardinal during JPII's pontificate. He, Bergoglio, is "the eighth" in appearance, but he is not a true pope and actually only a Cardinal with no real papal authority. This is why Daniel says, that this ten-horned Beast is "unlike to the other beasts which I had seen before." The 7 heads are 7 kings (monarch/Popes). The 10 Horns is an oligarchy or an aristocracy of those Cardinals who were supposed to share power after the 2013 fake conclave.
Now, if you have followed me this far, let me try to sum up. The problems in the Roman Catholic Church start before Vatican II. The errors begin to slowly take over starting, at least, with Pius XI. But the progression is gradual. So, I'm not claiming that all was well before Bergoglio takes over. No, "the Beast from the Sea" the corrupt Vatican hierarchy (caused by the Freemasonic infiltration) is growing since 1929. But the culmination of that process does not occur until we get to the "Beast from the Earth," the False Prophet, the Antichrist, the Little Horn, Bergoglio.
I will stop here for now. Do you agree that Daniel and the Apocalypse are describing this decades long deterioration of the Church with the image of the Beast from the Sea? Do you see how the Little Horn arises out of the Fourth and last Beast, the Beast that is "unlike to the other Beasts," whose head is "the Beast from the Earth." Do you see that this is an historical account of the different regimes of the Vatican City-State up to our time, ending with Bergoglio as the apex of evil?
Angelus,
As with the days, I do not believe the numbers are literal. The Apocalypse speaks of 7 kings, and then of an 8th, who is the beast (Apoc. 17:10-11). But then there is the beast, and then another beast in Apoc. 13:11 - the 9th?
It also speaks of a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Apoc. 17:7), and the 10 horns are "10 kings" (Apoc. 13:12). And it is these 10 kings that make war with the Lamb, and make the harlot "desolate," etc. (Apoc. 17:12-14, 17).
Daniel speaks of 10 horns, and of an 11th that arises, who brings down 3 of them; these horns are also "kings." (Dn 7:24). It is this "11th" horn that "shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time." Dan. 7:25. The 11th "king," not the 7th, or rather the 8th, or the 9th(?), or the "10 kings" in concert (Apoc. 17:12-14,17).
I could go on. The numbers, if you take them literally, just don't add up. Not only that, but they are in conflict if literal - being symbolic and figurative, there is no conflict.
As with the "days," I believe we will one day see that these numbers regarding "kings" and "horns" are not literal. They are tropes, symbolically charged, both the images ("kings," "horns") and their number.
DR
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Angelus,
As with the days, I do not believe the numbers are literal. The Apocalypse speaks of 7 kings, and then of an 8th, who is the beast (Apoc. 17:10-11). But then there is the beast, and then another beast in Apoc. 13:11 - the 9th?
It also speaks of a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Apoc. 17:7), and the 10 horns are "10 kings" (Apoc. 13:12). And it is these 10 kings that make war with the Lamb, and make the harlot "desolate," etc. (Apoc. 17:12-14, 17).
Daniel speaks of 10 horns, and of an 11th that arises, who brings down 3 of them; these horns are also "kings." (Dn 7:24). It is this "11th" horn that "shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time." Dan. 7:25. The 11th "king," not the 7th, or rather the 8th, or the 9th(?), or the "10 kings" in concert (Apoc. 17:12-14,17).
I could go on. The numbers, if you take them literally, just don't add up. Not only that, but they are in conflict if literal - being symbolic and figurative, there is no conflict.
As with the "days," I believe we will one day see that these numbers regarding "kings" and "horns" are not literal. They are tropes, symbolically charged, both the images ("kings," "horns") and their number.
DR
DR, some of these issues were settled by the Church Fathers. I don't have time right now to look up each topic, so I will just try to paraphrase what I have come to understand from my reading of the Fathers.
1. The "eighth" is described as "of the seven [kings]." This person is "the False Prophet," who the Church Fathers identify with the Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Little Horn. Same person.
2. In the passage from Apoc. 17 that I quoted, there are the two Beasts described in more detail in Apoc. chapter 13. The Beast from the Sea has 7 heads and 10 horns. That Beast is the institution of the Vatican City-State/Holy See and its governance structure. The Second Beast described in Apoc. 13, the Beast from the Earth, also called the False Prophet in the Apocalypse, is "the eighth" discussed in Apoc. 17.
These are overlapping descriptions. They are not describing new people. There is only one Antichrist, the single man, that all the Fathers recognize.
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Yes, I am morally certain that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the Antichrist prophesied in Sacred Scripture and discussed by all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
:laugh1: Oh, boy.
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DR, some of these issues were settled by the Church Fathers. I don't have time right now to look up each topic, so I will just try to paraphrase what I have come to understand from my reading of the Fathers.
1. The "eighth" is described as "of the seven [kings]." This person is "the False Prophet," who the Church Fathers identify with the Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Little Horn. Same person.
2. In the passage from Apoc. 17 that I quoted, there are the two Beasts described in more detail in Apoc. chapter 13. The Beast from the Sea has 7 heads and 10 horns. That Beast is the institution of the Vatican City-State/Holy See and its governance structure. The Second Beast described in Apoc. 13, the Beast from the Earth, also called the False Prophet in the Apocalypse, is "the eighth" discussed in Apoc. 17.
These are overlapping descriptions. They are not describing new people. There is only one Antichrist, the single man, that all the Fathers recognize.
Angelus,
I agree that there are "overlapping descriptions." However, under discussion is the literalness of the numbers. They don't jibe. I do not believe the numbers are to be literally taken.