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Author Topic: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962  (Read 2212 times)

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Offline Philip

Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2026, 02:54:13 AM »
Quote from: Incredulous on June 21, 2026, 09:47:26 PM
Didn't the SSPX and their offshoots receive the 62' missal this way?

:popcorn:







"Oh Lord, we need to help your chosen people.
Your Good Friday Solemnities are too harsh for them"





   
              "I have a suggestion...."





"I like Annibale's ideas for an updated missal"





                    "Thou chooses anathema? "









"Well, you see... Archbishop Lefebrve saw that Pope Pius XII
had planned for a new missal and he submitted to it."

And who appointed Bugnini as secretary to a commission for General Liturgical Reform in 1948?
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Offline Russiantrad

Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2026, 05:09:18 AM »
Quote from: Incredulous on June 21, 2026, 09:47:26 PM
Didn't the SSPX and their offshoots receive the 62' missal this way?

:popcorn:







"Oh Lord, we need to help your chosen people.
Your Good Friday Solemnities are too harsh for them"





   
              "I have a suggestion...."





"I like Annibale's ideas for an updated missal"





                    "Thou chooses anathema? "









"Well, you see... Archbishop Lefebrve saw that Pope Pius XII
had planned for a new missal and he submitted to it."
The legitimacy of the 1962 Missal for you rests on the question of whether John XXIII was Pope or not. No one can bind a future Pope in matters of liturgy, not even Saint Pius V. If John XXIII was pope, then you accept his Missal. If you think he was not, then you reject it. The 1962 Missal itself is not heretical and not dangerous to the faith.

The problem with the Novus Ordo is entirely different. The Novus Ordo itself is heretical and dangerous to the faith. The Pope cannot give the Church such a liturgy!
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2026, 07:27:16 AM »
Quote from: Boomerang on June 22, 2026, 02:53:14 AM
Is it that difficult to say "be conditionally ordained, or you can't minister to the faithful"?       

IMO it's just another outcome of the trying to consider the NO as part of the Church.
Totally agree.  The sspx failed here, because of bad logic.  They were trying to avoid the Sede argument “Well, if the new rites are all doubtful, then there’s no pope.”  Or something similar.  No, sorry Sedes, life isn’t that simple.  

But hindsight being 20/20, I’m darn sure that the sspx’s approach to the new rites was/is in some way affecter by their avoidance of sedeism.  Which is also very stupid.  

If +ABL and the sspx had taken an approach based on principles (ie new rite words and historical condemnations) instead of an emotional approach (avoiding Sedeism), all Trads would be in a better spot today. 

The sspx would have zero doubtful priests.  The sspx would’ve drawn a clear line in the sand vs the Indult.  And the sspx would be closer to the (correct) Sede view in the matter (ie conditional sacraments).  Tradition would be stronger for it. 
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2026, 07:30:51 AM »
Quote from: Russiantrad on June 22, 2026, 05:09:18 AM
The legitimacy of the 1962 Missal for you rests on the question of whether John XXIII was Pope or not. No one can bind a future Pope in matters of liturgy, not even Saint Pius V. If John XXIII was pope, then you accept his Missal. If you think he was not, then you reject it. The 1962 Missal itself is not heretical and not dangerous to the faith.

The problem with the Novus Ordo is entirely different. The Novus Ordo itself is heretical and dangerous to the faith. The Pope cannot give the Church such a liturgy!
It wasn’t John 23s missal though.  The original edition 62 missal was put in motion, outlined and started forming under Pius XII.  

John23s missal was the 2nd, 3rd, 4th editions of it, and these editions included the addition of St Joseph, the removal of the confiteor, etc

The only major issue with the original 62 missal is Holy Week.  Take that out of the equation and the 62 missal is fine for 362 days of the year. 
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Offline Incredulous

Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2026, 10:45:53 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 21, 2026, 11:55:20 PM

If Pius XII was a true pope, then the 62 missal is part of Quo Primum‘s long list of non-essential updates.

I can't escape the inconvenient word. "Perpetuity".   

"Updates" on the Holiest week of the Liturgy sounds like a Jєωιѕн marketing term.

Now, instead of analyzing Pacelli' pontificate, there are a few notorious items to consider:

1. He was of Jєωιѕн lineage.

2. In the US intelligence agency memorandum on the 1958 Conclave, the agent writing it stated that Montini had advised him that John XXIII would be chosen outside the conclave process, as was the same with Pope Pius XII.

3. That Pacelli approved of Bugnini's liturgical modifications. 

4. That Pacelli approved of Josemaria Escriva's (crypto-jew) apostolate.

Now to the Pope's defense. it is often cited that he was ill and that his judgement may have been compromised.
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