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Author Topic: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews  (Read 19253 times)

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Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2024, 12:22:03 PM »
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    • One element that firgures into this is local custom.

    As much as possible, I try to attend pre-55 Holy Week liturgies. From my own experience, whether pre-55 or 62, I have witnessed congregations that kneel for the Good Friday Collects and congregations that genuflect for these. One year I attended a Good Friday where the prayers were so fast that one had no time to do anythong between the "Flectamus genua" and the "Levate".

    The point here is that things can and do varying from place to place. When in Rome... but when in Rancho Cucamonga...
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    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #31 on: February 16, 2024, 05:15:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 16, 2024, 12:22:03 PM
    One element that firgures into this is local custom.

    As much as possible, I try to attend pre-55 Holy Week liturgies. From my own experience, whether pre-55 or 62, I have witnessed congregations that kneel for the Good Friday Collects and congregations that genuflect for these. One year I attended a Good Friday where the prayers were so fast that one had no time to do anythong between the "Flectamus genua" and the "Levate".

    The point here is that things can and do varying from place to place. When in Rome... but when in Rancho Cucamonga...

    Yes, I too have seen the old "FlectamusGenuaLevate" as a single word :laugh1:
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #32 on: February 17, 2024, 05:46:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 16, 2024, 12:22:03 PM
    One element that firgures into this is local custom.

    As much as possible, I try to attend pre-55 Holy Week liturgies. From my own experience, whether pre-55 or 62, I have witnessed congregations that kneel for the Good Friday Collects and congregations that genuflect for these. One year I attended a Good Friday where the prayers were so fast that one had no time to do anythong between the "Flectamus genua" and the "Levate".

    The point here is that things can and do varying from place to place. When in Rome... but when in Rancho Cucamonga...
    Yes, I don't doubt that there are different responses.  It's not the same, but I remember when I was still NO, there was a parish that didn't kneel for the consecration.  At the time, I refused to follow suit and knelt.  Of course, given it probably wasn't a real consecration, they were probably correct to not kneel!  This incident was one of the things that started to wake me up.  
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    Offline trento

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #33 on: February 17, 2024, 12:30:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 16, 2024, 07:43:19 AM
    He did not say "to", but rather "for".  :facepalm:
    Fair enough, but the genuflection/kneeling is to ask God for their conversion. Weren't it after all the Roman soldiers that mocked Our Lord with that gesture after putting Him with the purple garment?
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    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #34 on: February 17, 2024, 06:56:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: trento on February 15, 2024, 08:33:04 PM
    You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
    I know I am not genuflecting to them but the earlier Church had to have a pretty good reason why during the Good Friday Prayer For The Jєωs that the laity did not genuflect. When my parish was allowed to celebrate the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies back in 2019, the genuflection during that prayer was re-inserted and I was the only one at that mass who did not genuflect. I just have to go along with tradition, not the 1959 change that was made to appease Jєωs.
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    Offline Steve

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #35 on: March 11, 2024, 09:28:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on February 17, 2024, 06:56:52 PM
    I know I am not genuflecting to them but the earlier Church had to have a pretty good reason why during the Good Friday Prayer For The Jєωs that the laity did not genuflect. When my parish was allowed to celebrate the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies back in 2019, the genuflection during that prayer was re-inserted and I was the only one at that mass who did not genuflect. I just have to go along with tradition, not the 1959 change that was made to appease Jєωs.
    Echo that.  They didn't kneel before ... then they did kneel after.  Why?  I am pretty convinced Fr Mawdsley is onto the truth.  We know the Jews frequently lobbied at the highest levels of the Vatican for direct changes to the liturgy.  They should have just said " no," but it looks like they assented to the Jews on this.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #36 on: March 11, 2024, 10:41:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicChris on February 16, 2024, 06:50:09 AM

    Fr. Guéranger says otherwise.

    Makes sense.  I'd heard of something similar to this before.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #37 on: March 12, 2024, 05:22:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on March 11, 2024, 10:41:52 PM
    Makes sense.  I'd heard of something similar to this before.

    Based on the context of the quote to which you're responding, that statement was wrong, and admitted to be incorrect by the original poster.  During the genuflections, nobody is genuflecting TO the people being prayed for (infidels, heretics, schismatics, etc. ... or even Jews, when the genuflection was added back in).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #38 on: March 12, 2024, 05:24:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Steve on March 11, 2024, 09:28:48 PM
    Echo that.  They didn't kneel before ... then they did kneel after.  Why?

    Well, the why is quite clear ... Jєωιѕн pressure on and/or control over the papal claimants, culminating in Nostra Aetate.  I think what's being discussed is whether it is intrinsically wrong to genuflect to God while praying for the conversion of the Jews.  I certainly think it's better not to, for the reasons expressed by Fr. Gueranger, though I have a bigger problem with removing the "perfidious" qualifier for the Jews.
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    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #39 on: March 18, 2024, 12:25:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Steve on February 14, 2024, 12:41:25 PM
    Mawdsley's work retracing Scriptural seems to be thorough and well researched, can you provide a link to the Sungenis piece?  Sungenis is good (I like "The Principle" movie about defying Copernicus/Gallileo, which Sungenis promotes, but he's not 100% on everything...

    I am sorry for the delay, but this is where I may have found out about what Sungenis' position is now:

    He talks about it within the first ten minutes.
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    Offline Steve

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #40 on: July 28, 2024, 05:35:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kephapaulos on March 18, 2024, 12:25:10 AM
    I am sorry for the delay, but this is where I may have found out about what Sungenis' position is now:

    He talks about it within the first ten minutes.
    Belated thank you Kephapaulos!  And I am not so sure about "The Principle" anymore either... esp. if the earth is not a globe... :)
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #41 on: July 28, 2024, 05:57:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2024, 06:44:50 AM
    Unfortunately, the translation of perfidis above as "faithless" is way too weak, as it means more someone who rejected the faith, betrayed the faith, etc.  Jєωs betrayed their Covenant with God by rejecting the Messiah.  One could translate simply as "perfidious", but in English that just means "treacherous" and doesn't convey the notion of "faith" as the Latin does.  Not sure I could think of a single English word to translate perfidis.
    What about "unbelieving"?
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