Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Steve on February 11, 2024, 04:22:21 PM
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Fr. Mawdsley of the Fatima Center has been doing excellent work tracing the history of the Jews through the Old Testament and explaining why they are a huge part of the attack on the Church since they initially refused Christ as the Messiah...
His work is essentially an echo of Bishop Williamson, who acknowledges the giftedness of the Jews, their opposition to Christ in the current times, and their eventual conversion (NOT now), after which we can expect to see some of the most incredible martyrs and servants of the Church in salvation history.
He has been strongly recommending to Traditional Catholics that they NOT kneel during the Good Friday prayers for the Jews.
He has some excellent suggestion as to how to go about this, including approaching the priest, possibly weeks in advance (like now Quinqugesima Sunday), and suggesting this. In addition, talking to your Trad friends about it, so that when you do it yourself you won't be alone.
I think the general rules about singularity do not apply in this case, since this is a pretty important principal at stake. In the pre-1955 Missal we see that the rubrics expressly omitted the genuflection because we do not want to join in or in any way give the appearance of mocking our Lord as the Jews did - through the Roman soldiers to whom they handed Him over - as when they knelt before Him, handed him a reed for a scepter, etc.
The prayers for the Jews have apparently been tampered with several times in modern times, each time lessening the impact.
This video, of several he has posted, does a good job explaining this and why it is important that we get right the public prayer of the Church for the conversion of the Jews.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaZMkHWRl5U&pp=ygUnc3RyYXRlZ3kgdG8gcmVzdG9yZSBjYXRob2xpYyB0cmFkaXRpb24g
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His "New Old" book series is excellent. I'll probably attend the Good Friday liturgy at STAS and don't plan on kneeling during this prayer. I also plan on writing down the original prayer so I can pray it during the liturgy.
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Unfortunately, the translation of perfidis above as "faithless" is way too weak, as it means more someone who rejected the faith, betrayed the faith, etc. Jews betrayed their Covenant with God by rejecting the Messiah. One could translate simply as "perfidious", but in English that just means "treacherous" and doesn't convey the notion of "faith" as the Latin does. Not sure I could think of a single English word to translate perfidis.
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Fr. Mawdsley ...
At one point he expressed doubts about the validity of his own ordination. If he hasn't had the matter rectified, he should seek out Bishop Williamson for conditional ordination. I think he's great, but would like to see him be ordained indubitably as a priest.
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From the Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary ...
(https://i.ibb.co/jg8fqjv/perfidus.png)
And then in Ecclesiastical language, the term "faith" refers to supernatural faith beyond the sense used by the pagan Romans. Those who are merely without faith would be more infidus or infidelis, where as the prefix "per" suggests a more active or aggressive breaking or violation of faith, rather than a mere absence thereof.
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In the pre-1955 Missal we see that the rubrics expressly omitted the genuflection because we do not want to join in or in any way give the appearance of mocking our Lord as the Jews did - through the Roman soldiers to whom they handed Him over - as when they knelt before Him, handed him a reed for a scepter, etc.
I didn't think this was part of the Pius XII changes either. I have a St Andrew's 1949 missal, so I'm not sure.
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I didn't think this was part of the Pius XII changes either. I have a St Andrew's 1949 missal, so I'm not sure.
Yes, adding Flectamus genua etc was one of the changes in Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae Instauratus for Good Friday. 'Perfidious' was removed later.
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From the Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary ...
(https://i.ibb.co/jg8fqjv/perfidus.png)
And then in Ecclesiastical language, the term "faith" refers to supernatural faith beyond the sense used by the pagan Romans. Those who are merely without faith would be more infidus or infidelis, where as the prefix "per" suggests a more active or aggressive breaking or violation of faith, rather than a mere absence thereof.
Right, I think Mawdley himself walk this out about perfidy and the reason the Church places heretics first, then the Jews, then the infidels in that order... the "per" is a kind of treason
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Yes, adding Flectamus genua etc was one of the changes in Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae Instauratus for Good Friday. 'Perfidious' was removed later.
Yeah, the removal of perifidis is absurd. Not all Jews are perfidis, as some have accepted Our Lord and become Catholics. Others have become other religions, e.g. hertics, in which case they're being prayed for elsewhere. We're not praying for the Jews simpliciter here but for the "perfidious" ones.
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Yes, adding Flectamus genua etc was one of the changes in Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae Instauratus for Good Friday. 'Perfidious' was removed later.
Thank you. I forgot that my husband had a post-1955 missal, so I was able to confirm that the kneeling was instituted by then (and perfidious is still there).
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Just checked and 'perfidious' was ordered to be removed by John XXIII in March 1959. So effective for Good Friday that year and printed in subsequent editions of the Missal etc.
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Bit of trivia, circa late 19th/early 20th century, about Heinrich Johann Maria von Coudenhove-Kalergi, the philosemitic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi#Views_on_race_and_religion) proto-NWO father of that more famous internationalist aesthete (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi#Views_on_race_and_religion).
On every Good Friday (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday), as the liturgy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rite) came to the exhortation "oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis" ("Let us also pray for the perfidious Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer_for_the_Jews)"), the old count allegedly rose and walked out of the church in a protest against this supposed expression of antisemitism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi#cite_note-Whittaker-6)
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If I understood him correctly, Dr. Robert Sungenis has written against what Fr. Mawdsley said recently saying that St. Paul was not actually talking about an eventual conversion of the Jews in his Epistle to the Romans and that there were Fathers who misread that passage, which I found interesting yet strange because I would have thought it was something said by St. Paul and taught by the Fathers. Even though it is not a defined dogma, it is unwise to go write against what has been taught for a long time.
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If I understood him correctly, Dr. Robert Sungenis has written against what Fr. Mawdsley said recently saying that St. Paul was not actually talking about an eventual conversion of the Jєωs in his Epistle to the Romans and that there were Fathers who misread that passage, which I found interesting yet strange because I would have thought it was something said by St. Paul and taught by the Fathers. Even though it is not a defined dogma, it is unwise to go write against what has been taught for a long time.
Mawdsley's work retracing Scriptural seems to be thorough and well researched, can you provide a link to the Sungenis piece? Sungenis is good (I like "The Principle" movie about defying Copernicus/Gallileo, which Sungenis promotes, but he's not 100% on everything...
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I remember when I went to my parish on Good Friday in 2019 (where they celebrated the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies), I was the only one in the entire parish who did not genuflect during the prayer for the Jєωs. I didn't feel awkward or out-of-place because, regardless of what mandates or changes are ever applied to that Good Friday liturgy, I will never genuflect for the Sуηαgσgυє of Satan.
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Unfortunately, the translation of perfidis above as "faithless" is way too weak, as it means more someone who rejected the faith, betrayed the faith, etc. Jєωs betrayed their Covenant with God by rejecting the Messiah. One could translate simply as "perfidious", but in English that just means "treacherous" and doesn't convey the notion of "faith" as the Latin does. Not sure I could think of a single English word to translate perfidis.
Should we be afraid of the Jews? No. Pray for them, especially on Good Friday. (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEHZXtPtJG4)
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At one point he expressed doubts about the validity of his own ordination. If he hasn't had the matter rectified, he should seek out Bishop Williamson for conditional ordination. I think he's great, but would like to see him be ordained indubitably as a priest.
Here is what you are referring to:
What have the sedevacantists got right? Why we should listen to them. (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VlT5RwFTyk)
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I remember when I went to my parish on Good Friday in 2019 (where they celebrated the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies), I was the only one in the entire parish who did not genuflect during the prayer for the Jєωs. I didn't feel awkward or out-of-place because, regardless of what mandates or changes are ever applied to that Good Friday liturgy, I will never genuflect for the Sуηαgσgυє of Satan.
You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
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You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
Why are people using the phrase genuflection anyway? Isn't it kneeling? Isn't genuflection what we do when we show reverence to the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar (eg. before entering the pew)?
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Why are people using the phrase genuflection anyway? Isn't it kneeling? Isn't genuflection what we do when we show reverence to the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar (eg. before entering the pew)?
Genuflect comes from Latin as found in the rubrics of the Missal, Ritual, Breviary, and Pontifical, meaning "bend the knee".
There are many more times that one is to genuflect than when reverencing the Blessed Sacrament.
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Genuflect comes from Latin as found in the rubrics of the Missal, Ritual, Breviary, and Pontifical, meaning "bend the knee".
There are many more times that one is to genuflect than when reverencing the Blessed Sacrament.
I know that there are other times. But is this one of those times? My missal reads "kneel", not genuflect (as it says for the other prayers). Kneeling is not the same as genuflecting.
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You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
Fr. Guéranger says otherwise.
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I know that there are other times. But is this one of those times? My missal reads "kneel", not genuflect (as it says for the other prayers). Kneeling is not the same as genuflecting.
Kneeling and genuflecting are the same phrase in Latin.
Vernacular hand missals are very limited in their usefulness when dscussing doctrine, morals, and discipline. Their purpose is to serve as a manual of prayer for the laity that includes the ordinary and, in varying degrees, propers of the Mass. The only hand missals that can adequately serve for discussion of theology and liturgy are the Latin-only published juxta editiam typicam (according to the typical edition) like this one:
(https://i.imgur.com/rMl3PE2.jpg)
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Fr. Guéranger says otherwise.
That's false and not what Gueranger says. In all of the orations, the kneeling/genuflection is directed to God. We're not kneeling to adore the heretics, schismatics, infidels, etc. that are prayed for in any of the orations either. That's not to diminish the reasons cited by Fr. Gueranger for not genuflecting during the prayer for the Jews (recalling the mocking genuflections to which they at least indirectly subjected Our Lord). While it was reported that the Roman soldiers performed the action, the situation was set up by the false Jew charges that Christ had declared himself a King (in opposition to Caesar) as a way to browbeat Pilate into condemning Him to the cross.
Trento was partially correct, partially because Hank Igitur never stated that the genuflection was TO the Jews, but FOR the Jews.
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You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
He did not say "to", but rather "for". :facepalm:
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He did not say "to", but rather "for". :facepalm:
If one sticks to the unreformed Roman Liturgy for Good Friday, the whole matter becomes moot.
In the spirit of Sammy Hagar: "I can't pray 55!"
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Kneeling and genuflecting are the same phrase in Latin.
Vernacular hand missals are very limited in their usefulness when dscussing doctrine, morals, and discipline. Their purpose is to serve as a manual of prayer for the laity that includes the ordinary and, in varying degrees, propers of the Mass. The only hand missals that can adequately serve for discussion of theology and liturgy are the Latin-only published juxta editiam typicam (according to the typical edition) like this one:
(https://i.imgur.com/rMl3PE2.jpg)
I get that it is the same phrase. However, people keep asserting that we are "genuflecting" in the Good Friday prayers. We are not (well, those that actually have access to the Good Friday liturgy, which I do not). We kneel. There are clearly times in the Mass/Liturgy where there is kneeling but not genuflecting. This is one of those times.
Genuflection is only for God. I get that Pope Pius XII made a change from not kneeling to kneeling for the Jews. But there was never any "genuflecting" for anyone. Can you speak to this instead of repeating the same thing (that the two words are the same in Latin)? It seems to me that if we are going to discuss the Pian change that we should be accurate and not say he imposed genuflection for the Jews.
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EDIT: WRONG THREAD
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That's false and not what Gueranger says. In all of the orations, the kneeling/genuflection is directed to God. We're not kneeling to adore the heretics, schismatics, infidels, etc. that are prayed for in any of the orations either. That's not to diminish the reasons cited by Fr. Gueranger for not genuflecting during the prayer for the Jєωs (recalling the mocking genuflections to which they at least indirectly subjected Our Lord). While it was reported that the Roman soldiers performed the action, the situation was set up by the false Jєω charges that Christ had declared himself a King (in opposition to Caesar) as a way to browbeat Pilate into condemning Him to the cross.
Trento was partially correct, partially because Hank Igitur never stated that the genuflection was TO the Jєωs, but FOR the Jєωs.
Fair, I read it rather quickly.
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I get that it is the same phrase. However, people keep asserting that we are "genuflecting" in the Good Friday prayers. We are not (well, those that actually have access to the Good Friday liturgy, which I do not). We kneel. There are clearly times in the Mass/Liturgy where there is kneeling but not genuflecting. This is one of those times.
Genuflection is only for God. I get that Pope Pius XII made a change from not kneeling to kneeling for the Jews. But there was never any "genuflecting" for anyone. Can you speak to this instead of repeating the same thing (that the two words are the same in Latin)? It seems to me that if we are going to discuss the Pian change that we should be accurate and not say he imposed genuflection for the Jews.
I spoke with someone else about this and I realized that my 1949 missal states to "kneel" during the Last Gospel (and yet we "genuflect" there). I also think part of my confusion with the terminology is that I remember kneeling during all of the Good Friday prayers in the Novus Ordo. I have yet to experience a pre-Vatican II Good Friday liturgy.
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One element that firgures into this is local custom.
As much as possible, I try to attend pre-55 Holy Week liturgies. From my own experience, whether pre-55 or 62, I have witnessed congregations that kneel for the Good Friday Collects and congregations that genuflect for these. One year I attended a Good Friday where the prayers were so fast that one had no time to do anythong between the "Flectamus genua" and the "Levate".
The point here is that things can and do varying from place to place. When in Rome... but when in Rancho Cucamonga...
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One element that firgures into this is local custom.
As much as possible, I try to attend pre-55 Holy Week liturgies. From my own experience, whether pre-55 or 62, I have witnessed congregations that kneel for the Good Friday Collects and congregations that genuflect for these. One year I attended a Good Friday where the prayers were so fast that one had no time to do anythong between the "Flectamus genua" and the "Levate".
The point here is that things can and do varying from place to place. When in Rome... but when in Rancho Cucamonga...
Yes, I too have seen the old "FlectamusGenuaLevate" as a single word :laugh1:
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One element that firgures into this is local custom.
As much as possible, I try to attend pre-55 Holy Week liturgies. From my own experience, whether pre-55 or 62, I have witnessed congregations that kneel for the Good Friday Collects and congregations that genuflect for these. One year I attended a Good Friday where the prayers were so fast that one had no time to do anythong between the "Flectamus genua" and the "Levate".
The point here is that things can and do varying from place to place. When in Rome... but when in Rancho Cucamonga...
Yes, I don't doubt that there are different responses. It's not the same, but I remember when I was still NO, there was a parish that didn't kneel for the consecration. At the time, I refused to follow suit and knelt. Of course, given it probably wasn't a real consecration, they were probably correct to not kneel! This incident was one of the things that started to wake me up.
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He did not say "to", but rather "for". :facepalm:
Fair enough, but the genuflection/kneeling is to ask God for their conversion. Weren't it after all the Roman soldiers that mocked Our Lord with that gesture after putting Him with the purple garment?
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You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
I know I am not genuflecting to them but the earlier Church had to have a pretty good reason why during the Good Friday Prayer For The Jєωs that the laity did not genuflect. When my parish was allowed to celebrate the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies back in 2019, the genuflection during that prayer was re-inserted and I was the only one at that mass who did not genuflect. I just have to go along with tradition, not the 1959 change that was made to appease Jєωs.
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I know I am not genuflecting to them but the earlier Church had to have a pretty good reason why during the Good Friday Prayer For The Jєωs that the laity did not genuflect. When my parish was allowed to celebrate the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies back in 2019, the genuflection during that prayer was re-inserted and I was the only one at that mass who did not genuflect. I just have to go along with tradition, not the 1959 change that was made to appease Jєωs.
Echo that. They didn't kneel before ... then they did kneel after. Why? I am pretty convinced Fr Mawdsley is onto the truth. We know the Jews frequently lobbied at the highest levels of the Vatican for direct changes to the liturgy. They should have just said " no," but it looks like they assented to the Jews on this.
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Fr. Guéranger says otherwise.
Makes sense. I'd heard of something similar to this before.
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Makes sense. I'd heard of something similar to this before.
Based on the context of the quote to which you're responding, that statement was wrong, and admitted to be incorrect by the original poster. During the genuflections, nobody is genuflecting TO the people being prayed for (infidels, heretics, schismatics, etc. ... or even Jews, when the genuflection was added back in).
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Echo that. They didn't kneel before ... then they did kneel after. Why?
Well, the why is quite clear ... Jєωιѕн pressure on and/or control over the papal claimants, culminating in Nostra Aetate. I think what's being discussed is whether it is intrinsically wrong to genuflect to God while praying for the conversion of the Jews. I certainly think it's better not to, for the reasons expressed by Fr. Gueranger, though I have a bigger problem with removing the "perfidious" qualifier for the Jews.
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Mawdsley's work retracing Scriptural seems to be thorough and well researched, can you provide a link to the Sungenis piece? Sungenis is good (I like "The Principle" movie about defying Copernicus/Gallileo, which Sungenis promotes, but he's not 100% on everything...
I am sorry for the delay, but this is where I may have found out about what Sungenis' position is now: www.youtube.com/watch?v=17-Xl0j7mos
He talks about it within the first ten minutes.
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I am sorry for the delay, but this is where I may have found out about what Sungenis' position is now: www.youtube.com/watch?v=17-Xl0j7mos
He talks about it within the first ten minutes.
Belated thank you Kephapaulos! And I am not so sure about "The Principle" anymore either... esp. if the earth is not a globe... :)
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Unfortunately, the translation of perfidis above as "faithless" is way too weak, as it means more someone who rejected the faith, betrayed the faith, etc. Jєωs betrayed their Covenant with God by rejecting the Messiah. One could translate simply as "perfidious", but in English that just means "treacherous" and doesn't convey the notion of "faith" as the Latin does. Not sure I could think of a single English word to translate perfidis.
What about "unbelieving"?