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Author Topic: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews  (Read 19197 times)

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Offline Steve

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  • Fr. Mawdsley of the Fatima Center has been doing excellent work tracing the history of the Jews through the Old Testament and explaining why they are a huge part of the attack on the Church since they initially refused Christ as the Messiah...

    His work is essentially an echo of Bishop Williamson, who acknowledges the giftedness of the Jews, their opposition to Christ in the current times, and their eventual conversion (NOT now), after which we can expect to see some of the most incredible martyrs and servants of the Church in salvation history.

    He has been strongly recommending to Traditional Catholics that they NOT kneel during the Good Friday prayers for the Jews.

    He has some excellent suggestion as to how to go about this, including approaching the priest, possibly weeks in advance (like now Quinqugesima Sunday), and suggesting this.  In addition, talking to your Trad friends about it, so that when you do it yourself you won't be alone.

    I think the general rules about singularity do not apply in this case, since this is a pretty important principal at stake.  In the pre-1955 Missal we see that the rubrics expressly omitted the genuflection because we do not want to join in or in any way give the appearance of mocking our Lord as the Jews did - through the Roman soldiers to whom they handed Him over - as when they knelt before Him, handed him a reed for a scepter, etc.

    The prayers for the Jews have apparently been tampered with several times in modern times, each time lessening the impact.

    This video, of several he has posted, does a good job explaining this and why it is important that we get right the public prayer of the Church for the conversion of the Jews.






    Offline CatholicChris

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #1 on: February 12, 2024, 04:27:19 AM »
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  • His "New Old" book series is excellent. I'll probably attend the Good Friday liturgy at STAS and don't plan on kneeling during this prayer. I also plan on writing down the original prayer so I can pray it during the liturgy. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #2 on: February 12, 2024, 06:44:50 AM »
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  • Unfortunately, the translation of perfidis above as "faithless" is way too weak, as it means more someone who rejected the faith, betrayed the faith, etc.  Jews betrayed their Covenant with God by rejecting the Messiah.  One could translate simply as "perfidious", but in English that just means "treacherous" and doesn't convey the notion of "faith" as the Latin does.  Not sure I could think of a single English word to translate perfidis.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #3 on: February 12, 2024, 06:47:15 AM »
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  • Fr. Mawdsley ...

    At one point he expressed doubts about the validity of his own ordination.  If he hasn't had the matter rectified, he should seek out Bishop Williamson for conditional ordination.  I think he's great, but would like to see him be ordained indubitably as a priest.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #4 on: February 12, 2024, 06:51:04 AM »
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  • From the Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary ...


    And then in Ecclesiastical language, the term "faith" refers to supernatural faith beyond the sense used by the pagan Romans.  Those who are merely without faith would be more infidus or infidelis, where as the prefix "per" suggests a more active or aggressive breaking or violation of faith, rather than a mere absence thereof.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #5 on: February 12, 2024, 06:52:58 AM »
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  • In the pre-1955 Missal we see that the rubrics expressly omitted the genuflection because we do not want to join in or in any way give the appearance of mocking our Lord as the Jews did - through the Roman soldiers to whom they handed Him over - as when they knelt before Him, handed him a reed for a scepter, etc.

    I didn't think this was part of the Pius XII changes either.  I have a St Andrew's 1949 missal, so I'm not sure.

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #6 on: February 12, 2024, 07:08:48 AM »
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  • I didn't think this was part of the Pius XII changes either.  I have a St Andrew's 1949 missal, so I'm not sure.
    Yes, adding Flectamus genua etc was one of the changes in Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae Instauratus for Good Friday.  'Perfidious' was removed later.

    Offline Steve

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #7 on: February 12, 2024, 07:29:15 AM »
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  • From the Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary ...


    And then in Ecclesiastical language, the term "faith" refers to supernatural faith beyond the sense used by the pagan Romans.  Those who are merely without faith would be more infidus or infidelis, where as the prefix "per" suggests a more active or aggressive breaking or violation of faith, rather than a mere absence thereof.
    Right, I think Mawdley himself walk this out about perfidy and the reason the Church places heretics first, then the Jews, then the infidels in that order... the "per" is a kind of treason 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #8 on: February 12, 2024, 07:49:53 AM »
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  • Yes, adding Flectamus genua etc was one of the changes in Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae Instauratus for Good Friday.  'Perfidious' was removed later.

    Yeah, the removal of perifidis is absurd.  Not all Jews are perfidis, as some have accepted Our Lord and become Catholics.  Others have become other religions, e.g. hertics, in which case they're being prayed for elsewhere.  We're not praying for the Jews simpliciter here but for the "perfidious" ones.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #9 on: February 12, 2024, 08:10:35 AM »
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  • Yes, adding Flectamus genua etc was one of the changes in Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae Instauratus for Good Friday.  'Perfidious' was removed later.
    Thank you.  I forgot that my husband had a post-1955 missal, so I was able to confirm that the kneeling was instituted by then (and perfidious is still there). 

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #10 on: February 12, 2024, 08:40:36 AM »
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  • Just checked and 'perfidious' was ordered to be removed by John XXIII in March 1959.  So effective for Good Friday that year and printed in subsequent editions of the Missal etc.


    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #11 on: February 12, 2024, 12:31:00 PM »
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  • Bit of trivia, circa late 19th/early 20th century, about Heinrich Johann Maria von Coudenhove-Kalergi, the philosemitic proto-NWO father of that more famous internationalist aesthete.

    Quote
    On every Good Friday, as the liturgy came to the exhortation "oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis" ("Let us also pray for the perfidious Jews"), the old count allegedly rose and walked out of the church in a protest against this supposed expression of antisemitism.[6]
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #12 on: February 12, 2024, 11:50:55 PM »
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  • If I understood him correctly, Dr. Robert Sungenis has written against what Fr. Mawdsley said recently saying that St. Paul was not actually talking about an eventual conversion of the Jews in his Epistle to the Romans and that there were Fathers who misread that passage, which I found interesting yet strange because I would have thought it was something said by St. Paul and taught by the Fathers. Even though it is not a defined dogma, it is unwise to go write against what has been taught for a long time. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Steve

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #13 on: February 14, 2024, 12:41:25 PM »
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  • If I understood him correctly, Dr. Robert Sungenis has written against what Fr. Mawdsley said recently saying that St. Paul was not actually talking about an eventual conversion of the Jєωs in his Epistle to the Romans and that there were Fathers who misread that passage, which I found interesting yet strange because I would have thought it was something said by St. Paul and taught by the Fathers. Even though it is not a defined dogma, it is unwise to go write against what has been taught for a long time.
    Mawdsley's work retracing Scriptural seems to be thorough and well researched, can you provide a link to the Sungenis piece?  Sungenis is good (I like "The Principle" movie about defying Copernicus/Gallileo, which Sungenis promotes, but he's not 100% on everything...


    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #14 on: February 15, 2024, 03:06:54 PM »
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  • I remember when I went to my parish on Good Friday in 2019 (where they celebrated the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies), I was the only one in the entire parish who did not genuflect during the prayer for the Jєωs. I didn't feel awkward or out-of-place because, regardless of what mandates or changes are ever applied to that Good Friday liturgy, I will never genuflect for the Sуηαgσgυє of Satan.