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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 58637 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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  • Flat earthers' approach to Scripture is like a small child who unwraps a present and plays with the wrapping paper while ignoring the beautiful and precious gift that was intended for him.

    God reveals His plan of salvation and teaches us how we might better live to please Him in Scripture.  It is the most important information that we will encounter in our lives.  The words and figures of speech are there to convey these truths, not to be a puzzle in which we look for clues about the shape of the earth.  If the shape of the earth were important to salvation, it would be clearly stated in Scripture and taught by the Church, and this is not the case.

    Stop playing games with the wrapping paper of figurative language and pay attention to the gift of Sacred Scripture. 

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • Pope Leo does specify what he is talking about -- "things in no way profitable unto salvation".

    Scripture teaches about science only to the extent that it affects truths concerning salvation.  For example, what Scripture teaches about original sin shows that we cannot accept a theory of evolution that contradicts that.  And there are magisterial statements explicitly stating this. There is no good reason to think that the shape of the earth pertains to salvation.

    Even if the earth were flat, it would not change this principle of interpreting Scripture.  One does not take a passage concerning a truth pertaining to salvation, ignore what is teaching about that truth, and search its figures of speech for implications about the nature of the physical universe.  Such behaviour is a perversion of the intent of Scripture.  Even if what one concludes about nature is true.

    If you think that science shows the earth is flat, go ahead and talk about that science.  But stop profaning Sacred Scripture.
    Popes can be wrong when they do not meet the conditions for teaching infallibly, whether or not they are Saints.  But when a papal teaching is confirmed by three more popes (as Prudentissimus Deus was) it is difficult to claim that they were all wrong. (And yes, I recognize Francis as pope.)

    The Church Fathers can be considered infallible when they speak unanimously on a matter that they identify as belonging to faith.  There is no "enough to make a convincing case".  It must be unanimous and it must be identified as about faith.  This is not the case regarding flat earth.  As Pope Leo says: "in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect."

    Even a Doctor of the Church like St. Augustine can be wrong, especially when giving opinions on science rather than faith.  Other Doctors, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Albert the Great, believed the earth was a globe.

    You are saying that the creation is in no way profitable to salvation, that's not what Pope Leo said.

    SAINT Pius the X spoke, as I mentioned about things which touch on the foundations of our religion and then mentioned creation first before anything else.

    Even if Pope Leo was referring to the flat earth and it was confirmed by some of his successors, that does not make it right! All the post conciliar popes have confirmed VII's teachings. Clearly they are ALL wrong.

    To repeat myself, sacred scripture is not a science book. I am however entitled to take it literally, especially when it is backed up by science.



    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • You are saying that the creation is in no way profitable to salvation, that's not what Pope Leo said.

    SAINT Pius the X spoke, as I mentioned about things which touch on the foundations of our religion and then mentioned creation first before anything else.

    Even if Pope Leo was referring to the flat earth and it was confirmed by some of his successors, that does not make it right! All the post conciliar popes have confirmed VII's teachings. Clearly they are ALL wrong.

    To repeat myself, sacred scripture is not a science book. I am however entitled to take it literally, especially when it is backed up by science.
    More than that, we are obligated to take it literally, otherwise it was written in vain. See the teaching on the Eucharist for why.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • I was not suggesting that the Dogmatic Flatearthers are Gnostics properly speaking. That was it's own "religion". I think that they are similar in the fact that they claim to have knowledge that one needs to be saved that they can see in Scripture and hardly anybody else can. There is obviously nothing about the flat Earth in Scripture, so where is this hidden knowledge they claim to have that one needs for Salvation? It's like a little "Christian" cult that has their own dogmas.
    Hardly anyone?
    All ancient cultures knew earth to be flat, including the Hebrews.
    Christians knew this also prior to the Copernican revolution. 

    Offline Jaynek

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  • You are saying that the creation is in no way profitable to salvation, that's not what Pope Leo said.

    SAINT Pius the X spoke, as I mentioned about things which touch on the foundations of our religion and then mentioned creation first before anything else.

    Even if Pope Leo was referring to the flat earth and it was confirmed by some of his successors, that does not make it right! All the post conciliar popes have confirmed VII's teachings. Clearly they are ALL wrong.

    To repeat myself, sacred scripture is not a science book. I am however entitled to take it literally, especially when it is backed up by science.
    The fact that God created everything including humanity is indeed a truth at the foundation of our religion.  That is why, for example, we know that evolutionists who say that everything just came about through random events are wrong.  Of course, Pius X mentioned the fact God's creation it first.  It is the main point of the first chapter of Genesis.  It is also the first line of the Creed.  

    But that same docuмent said: "it was not the intention of the sacred author, when writing the first chapter of Genesis, to teach us in a scientific manner the innermost nature of visible things and the complete order of creation but rather to hand on to his people a popular account, such as the common parlance of that age allowed, adapted to the senses and to man’s capacity" so it is not necessary to treat it as if it were scientific information".
    The fact that creation happened and God is our Creator does not mean it is profitable to salvation to look at the the creation account (or an other part of Scripture) for details about science.  That is not the intent and it is not necessary.

    You are not entitled to take literally things that the Church teaches are not literal any more than you are entitled to take figuratively that which the Church teaches is not figurative.  You are not entitled to treat as science that which the Church teaches is not meant as science.  The Church has the sole authority to interpret Scripture.

    And if your insistence on flat earth makes you reluctant to accept that authority, ready to claim that multiple popes taught in error, then something is seriously evil about this belief.  Our concerns about the post-Conciliar popes are based on their apparent contradiction of clear Church teaching, not due to them interfering with our pet theories about science.  There was a never such a teaching about flat earth.  For at least the last thousand years, virtually all Catholics believed the earth is a globe, although it was never taught as doctrine.


    Offline happenby

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  • I was not suggesting that the Dogmatic Flatearthers are Gnostics properly speaking. That was it's own "religion". I think that they are similar in the fact that they claim to have knowledge that one needs to be saved that they can see in Scripture and hardly anybody else can. There is obviously nothing about the flat Earth in Scripture, so where is this hidden knowledge they claim to have that one needs for Salvation? It's like a little "Christian" cult that has their own dogmas.
    Actually, the flat earthers in this forum are showing that the Catholic Church has defended Geocentrism throughout the centuries, that heliocentrism is provably pagan and that heliocentrism is the model the world holds today, at great detriment to the masses.  The proofs are there, unless one decides not to look, refuses to accept or downright lies about it. 

    Offline happenby

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  • The fact that God created everything including humanity is indeed a truth at the foundation of our religion.  That is why, for example, we know that evolutionists who say that everything just came about through random events are wrong.  Of course, Pius X mentioned the fact God's creation it first.  It is the main point of the first chapter of Genesis.  It is also the first line of the Creed.  

    But that same docuмent said: "it was not the intention of the sacred author, when writing the first chapter of Genesis, to teach us in a scientific manner the innermost nature of visible things and the complete order of creation but rather to hand on to his people a popular account, such as the common parlance of that age allowed, adapted to the senses and to man’s capacity" so it is not necessary to treat it as if it were scientific information".
    The fact that creation happened and God is our Creator does not mean it is profitable to salvation to look at the the creation account (or an other part of Scripture) for details about science.  That is not the intent and it is not necessary.

    You are not entitled to take literally things that the Church teaches are not literal any more than you are entitled to take figuratively that which the Church teaches is not figurative.  You are not entitled to treat as science that which the Church teaches is not meant as science.  The Church has the sole authority to interpret Scripture.

    And if your insistence on flat earth makes you reluctant to accept that authority, ready to claim that multiple popes taught in error, then something is seriously evil about this belief.  Our concerns about the post-Conciliar popes are based on their apparent contradiction of clear Church teaching, not due to them interfering with our pet theories about science.  There was a never such a teaching about flat earth.  For at least the last thousand years, virtually all Catholics believed the earth is a globe, although it was never taught as doctrine.
    There is no argument here.  The  Church has clearly defended the flat geocentric earth because the Fathers of the Church prove it is scriptural.  Your snippet in no way proves earth is a globe. 

    Offline happenby

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  • The naysayers are at it again, proving time and time again that they do not know what the Church teaches, only that they refuse to look.


    Offline happenby

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  • As she changes the subject again. I guess I will too.

    Do you believe in the Nephilim since it's in the Book of Enoch?

    Do you believe those who willingly get their sons circuмcised after seeing Florence are heretics, sinners, etc....?
    Yes, there were Nephilim/giants.  As Scripture attests.  Anyone who is made aware of the condemnation of circuмcision in the Council of Florence and still cuts their boy is definitely in trouble.  To what degree is God's business. 

    Offline Jaynek

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  • There is no argument here.  The  Church has clearly defended the flat geocentric earth because the Fathers of the Church prove it is scriptural.  Your snippet in no way proves earth is a globe.
    Opinions of the Fathers can only be called Church teaching when they speak unanimously on something they identify as a matter of faith.  So quotes which show that some Fathers believed in a flat earth without identifying it as a matter of faith, do not show there was a Church teaching on this.
    After the Ptolemaic model (geocentric, globe earth) was introduced in the second century, it came to dominate Christian thinking.  After the period of the Fathers, fewer and fewer Catholics believed in a flat earth and it was virtually erased by the time that Catholic universities started developing.  If the Church had recognized the Fathers' personal opinions about flat earth as proven by Scripture, this could not have happened.

    Offline happenby

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  • How were the giants made? Were they man, derived from Adam and Eve or did they come from the angels mating with man?
    Angels cannot mate with man.  They have no regenerative ability.  As it is written in scripture, the giants came from the daughters of Men and the Sons of God.  Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine say that the daughters of the pagans (daughters of men) mixed with the sons of God (sons of the true religion), men who disobediently strayed from the true lineage of God in order to be with the beautiful women of pagans.  How giants came about exactly, it is unclear (probably clever machinations of the devil who understood what specific matches between individuals might create giants) but we know for certain that two groups were involved, tempted to interbreed, and it resulted in giants.   


    Offline Jaynek

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  • The naysayers are at it again, proving time and time again that they do not know what the Church teaches, only that they refuse to look.
    I am not the one claiming that multiple popes teaching on how to understand Scripture were in error.  My position is consistent with various magisterial statements.  Yours comes from private interpretation of Scripture.  And you deny what the Church teaches when it is shown to you.

    Offline happenby

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  • Opinions of the Fathers can only be called Church teaching when they speak unanimously on something they identify as a matter of faith.  So quotes which show that some Fathers believed in a flat earth without identifying it as a matter of faith, do not show there was a Church teaching on this.
    After the Ptolemaic model (geocentric, globe earth) was introduced in the second century, it came to dominate Christian thinking.  After the period of the Fathers, fewer and fewer Catholics believed in a flat earth and it was virtually erased by the time that Catholic universities started developing.  If the Church had recognized the Fathers' personal opinions about flat earth as proven by Scripture, this could not have happened.
    That something needs to be infallibly defined before one has to believe it is false.  The last sentence of yours is nonsensical.  The Church condemned the model at odds with the Fathers of the Church.  Just because people during the Great Apostasy have abandoned the teaching doesn't mean it went away.  

    Offline happenby

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  • I am not the one claiming that multiple popes teaching on how to understand Scripture were in error.  My position is consistent with various magisterial statements.  Yours comes from private interpretation of Scripture.  And you deny what the Church teaches when it is shown to you.
    Ma'am, the position of the Church preceding various thoughts of popes who came later supersedes any teaching to the contrary.  The Church has spoken.  It is more impossible for the Church to lay down a condemnation and be wrong than a pope to write a paper and be mistaken or misunderstood.  The statements from the Church constitute a universal teaching that cannot be undone.  It is common understanding that when new contradicts old, a true Catholic needs remain with antiquity.  

    Offline Jaynek

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  • That something needs to be infallibly defined before one has to believe it is false.  The last sentence of yours is nonsensical.  The Church condemned the model at odds with the Fathers of the Church.  Just because people during the Great Apostasy have abandoned the teaching doesn't mean it went away.  
    The Church condemned heliocentrism in 1633 and removed the condemnation 1820.  At the time of the condemnation, the main competing model, Ptolemaic geocentrism, included a globe earth.  Therefore the condemnation clearly has nothing to do with the Church wanting to preserve a belief in flat earth.  There was virtually no such belief at the time.