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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 59251 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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  • I never said that everything relating to be creation in a literalistic way. The Bible is not a science book. But you are wrong to attack people for interpreting it in a literalistic way. Because the science supports us on certain points notbaly, the non curvature of the earth.

    It is therefore NOT wrong to insist that certain point be interpretated in a literalistic way, ESPECIALLY when science supports that point.

    So your sin to repent of is attacking people over this particular point and attacks on people intrepreting scripture literally in general.
    Taking a passage about the Second Coming, the greatness of God, or some other truth of the Faith, ignoring its actual subject, and reading into it implications about the shape of the earth, is wrong. And it is not what the Church means when she teaches us to use literal interpretation. Fathers, Doctors and popes have taught that your approach to interpretation is wrong.  Private interpretation of Scripture, ignoring principles given in authoritative teaching is wrong.  Insisting that others join you in your error is wrong.

    There are no direct statements in Scripture that the earth is flat.  All the "Scriptural support" comes from passages about something else that have no intention to teach about the shape of the earth.  There are no magisterial statements that the earth is  flat.  The majority of Catholics, for at least the last thousand years, have believed the earth is a globe. It is wrong to describe Flat earth as a Catholic belief.  It is even more wrong to treat it like a dogma and say or imply that those who disagree are heretics.

    I don't know about the science aspect of the question, but virtually everything I have seen here from flatearthers pertaining to the theological aspect has been wrong.  Even if the earth were actually flat, they would be wrong.

    There may have been times when I was too harsh or impatient in my posts and I am sorry for that,  but I do not repent of identifying the errors of the flat earthers. 

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • Taking a passage about the Second Coming, the greatness of God, or some other truth of the Faith, ignoring its actual subject, and reading into it implications about the shape of the earth, is wrong. And it is not what the Church means when she teaches us to use literal interpretation. Fathers, Doctors and popes have taught that your approach to interpretation is wrong.  Private interpretation of Scripture, ignoring principles given in authoritative teaching is wrong.  Insisting that others join you in your error is wrong.

    There are no direct statements in Scripture that the earth is flat.  All the "Scriptural support" comes from passages about something else that have no intention to teach about the shape of the earth.  There are no magisterial statements that the earth is  flat.  The majority of Catholics, for at least the last thousand years, have believed the earth is a globe. It is wrong to describe Flat earth as a Catholic belief.  It is even more wrong to treat it like a dogma and say or imply that those who disagree are heretics.

    I don't know about the science aspect of the question, but virtually everything I have seen here from flatearthers pertaining to the theological aspect has been wrong.  Even if the earth were actually flat, they would be wrong.

    There may have been times when I was too harsh or impatient in my posts and I am sorry for that,  but I do not repent of identifying the errors of the flat earthers.

    Jayne

    Go back over these quotes again http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

    Notice how the Holy office condemns Galileo for an opinion which is contrary to scripture. St. Jerome makes his condemnation in the context of a commentary on scripture. The same for St. John Chrysostum.

    St. Augustine uses scripture also when speaking about the solidity of the firmament(elsewhere).
     
    They used their common sense, which science now show us all the more, and pointed to how scripture confirms all this.

    It's really that simple.  I don't see what your problem is. I don't see any of my fellow flat earthers insisting on a literal interpretation which would be ridiculous, but rather on something which science also shows us to be true.

    I think you are creating a straw man here.


    Offline Jaynek

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  • Jayne

    Go back over these quotes again http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

    Notice how the Holy office condemns Galileo for an opinion which is contrary to scripture. St. Jerome makes his condemnation in the context of a commentary on scripture. The same for St. John Chrysostum.

    St. Augustine uses scripture also when speaking about the solidity of the firmament(elsewhere).
     
    They used their common sense, which science now show us all the more, and pointed to how scripture confirms all this.

    It's really that simple.  I don't see what your problem is. I don't see any of my fellow flat earthers insisting on a literal interpretation which would be ridiculous, but rather on something which science also shows us to be true.

    I think you are creating a straw man here.

    The Church has the authority to decide that an opinion on science is contrary to Scripture and dangerous to the Faith. Evolution is a clear example of that. (Heliocentrism is less so since the condemnation was later lifted.) Lay people do not have the authority to make those sorts of claims.  The Church has never taught anything like that about a globe earth.

    You quote Saints who drew conclusions about physical science from Scripture long before Pope Leo taught not to.  This does not cancel out his teaching so that we who know of it may ignore it.  And it is ironic that you cite St. Augustine when you ignore the principle he taught:

    Quote
    It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them.   Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.

    What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?
     
     But the credibility of Scripture is at stake, and as I have indicated more than once, there is danger that a man uninstructed in divine revelation, discovering something in Scripture or hearing from it something that seems to be at variance with the knowledge he has acquired, may resolutely withhold his assent in other matters where Scripture presents useful admonitions, narratives, or declarations.  
    Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation.
    The flat earthers are not insisting on a literal interpretation, but a literalistic one.  A literal interpretation is one that considers the information that the Sacred author intends to convey.  A literalistic one takes figurative language as if it were literal.  When a passage is about the Second Coming, for example, the literal interpretation concerns the Second Coming.  A literalistic one finds a figure of speech in the passage, treats it as literal and deduces that the earth is flat, even though it is obvious that the author had no intention to teach about this.  

    Offline Meg

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  • St. Augustine's commentary on discussing the shape of heaven is interesting, but it doesn't have anything to do with the flat earth. We haven't been discussing the shape of heaven. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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  • St. Augustine's commentary on discussing the shape of heaven is interesting, but it doesn't have anything to do with the flat earth. We haven't been discussing the shape of heaven.
    Pope Leo quotes this passage in Prudentissimus Deus, extending the principle concerning the shape of heaven to the "essential nature of the things of the visible universe" in general. We might guess the principle has wider application merely from reading the St. Augustine passage, but we don't need to guess since Pope Leo has spelled that out for us.  Anyhow, since the shape of the earth is just like the shape of heaven in being irrelevant to salvation, it is clear to any reasonable person that the shape of the earth is one of those things that Scripture does not intend to teach.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • Hey Meg, this is the kind of garbage I'm talking about. "Maybe Jaynek is a Freemason"?? When one is a Dogmatic Flatearther and believes that one cannot be saved without the hidden knowledge of the shape of the Earth, one says things like this all willy-nilly with no proof. Just blind hatred spewing out of their mouths.

    I think that one could make a case that these Dogmatic Flatearthers are actually Gnostics. They are claiming this knowledge is from Scripture, but Scripture makes no mention of it. It's all a ruse to distract us from beneficial Church Teaching that will actually aid us spiritually.

    .
    Yes, Gnostics.  Flat-earthism is gnosticism.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Yes, Gnostics.  Flat-earthism is gnosticism.

    No, I don't buy that.  I've studied gnosticism.  It's not gnosticism any more than geocentrism is gnosticism.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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  • Pope Leo quotes this passage in Prudentissimus Deus, extending the principle concerning the shape of heaven to the "essential nature of the things of the visible universe" in general. We might guess the principle has wider application merely from reading the St. Augustine passage, but we don't need to guess since Pope Leo has spelled that out for us.  Anyhow, since the shape of the earth is just like the shape of heaven in being irrelevant to salvation, it is clear to any reasonable person that the shape of the earth is one of those things that Scripture does not intend to teach.
    The flat earth horizon is clearly visible.


    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Yes, Gnostics.  Flat-earthism is gnosticism.
    God created the flat earth and the spiritual.

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • The Church has the authority to decide that an opinion on science is contrary to Scripture and dangerous to the Faith. Evolution is a clear example of that. (Heliocentrism is less so since the condemnation was later lifted.) Lay people do not have the authority to make those sorts of claims.  The Church has never taught anything like that about a globe earth.

    You quote Saints who drew conclusions about physical science from Scripture long before Pope Leo taught not to.  This does not cancel out his teaching so that we who know of it may ignore it.  And it is ironic that you cite St. Augustine when you ignore the principle he taught:
    The flat earthers are not insisting on a literal interpretation, but a literalistic one.  A literal interpretation is one that considers the information that the Sacred author intends to convey.  A literalistic one takes figurative language as if it were literal.  When a passage is about the Second Coming, for example, the literal interpretation concerns the Second Coming.  A literalistic one finds a figure of speech in the passage, treats it as literal and deduces that the earth is flat, even though it is obvious that the author had no intention to teach about this. 

    Jayne,

    I'm sorry, but the Leo XIII quote does not specify what he is talking about. He could be talking about the essential nature of dogs, or cats for all we know. You are reading globe earth into it.

    But he could NOT be talking about the globe earth, because the science shows us that this is false.

    Leo XIII was not a saint. Pope Francis (do you admit he is Pope by the way?) is not a saint.

    Therefore Popes can be wrong against saints who are not Popes. We have enough Saint Fathers to make a convincing case. You should be careful about being so insistent on a point that you may have to admit is wrong someday.

    I have already explained the intentions of flat earthers with regard to scripture. Your response adds nothing new to the discussion.

    The St. Augustine quote that you just gave does not support your argument! He talks about going into the details too much when we dont have any from scripture at least. But he is adamant that the firmament is solid. This is why there is not contradiction in what he says.

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • .
    Yes, Gnostics.  Flat-earthism is gnosticism.

    The other way around actually.

    Call someone the very thing you are guilty of and no one will suspect you. A classic tactic.


    Offline Jaynek

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  • No, I don't buy that.  I've studied gnosticism.  It's not gnosticism any more than geocentrism is gnosticism.
     I agree that it is not, strictly speaking, gnosticism.  It is not helpful to refer to flat earthers as gnostics.

    Offline Jaynek

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  • Jayne,

    I'm sorry, but the Leo XIII quote does not specify what he is talking about. He could be talking about the essential nature of dogs, or cats for all we know. You are reading globe earth into it.

    But he could NOT be talking about the globe earth, because the science shows us that this is false.
    Pope Leo does specify what he is talking about -- "things in no way profitable unto salvation".

    Scripture teaches about science only to the extent that it affects truths concerning salvation.  For example, what Scripture teaches about original sin shows that we cannot accept a theory of evolution that contradicts that.  And there are magisterial statements explicitly stating this. There is no good reason to think that the shape of the earth pertains to salvation. 

    Even if the earth were flat, it would not change this principle of interpreting Scripture.  One does not take a passage concerning a truth pertaining to salvation, ignore what is teaching about that truth, and search its figures of speech for implications about the nature of the physical universe.  Such behaviour is a perversion of the intent of Scripture.  Even if what one concludes about nature is true.

    If you think that science shows the earth is flat, go ahead and talk about that science.  But stop profaning Sacred Scripture.
    Leo XIII was not a saint. Pope Francis (do you admit he is Pope by the way?) is not a saint.

    Therefore Popes can be wrong against saints who are not Popes. We have enough Saint Fathers to make a convincing case. You should be careful about being so insistent on a point that you may have to admit is wrong someday.

    I have already explained the intentions of flat earthers with regard to scripture. Your response adds nothing new to the discussion.

    The St. Augustine quote that you just gave does not support your argument! He talks about going into the details too much when we dont have any from scripture at least. But he is adamant that the firmament is solid. This is why there is not contradiction in what he says.

    Popes can be wrong when they do not meet the conditions for teaching infallibly, whether or not they are Saints.  But when a papal teaching is confirmed by three more popes (as Prudentissimus Deus was) it is difficult to claim that they were all wrong. (And yes, I recognize Francis as pope.)

    The Church Fathers can be considered infallible when they speak unanimously on a matter that they identify as belonging to faith.  There is no "enough to make a convincing case".  It must be unanimous and it must be identified as about faith.  This is not the case regarding flat earth.  As Pope Leo says: "in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect."

    Even a Doctor of the Church like St. Augustine can be wrong, especially when giving opinions on science rather than faith.  Other Doctors, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Albert the Great, believed the earth was a globe.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • .
    Yes, Gnostics.  Flat-earthism is gnosticism.
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is gnosticism. That's what the "G" is in their rings.
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is the cult of Pythagoras. The religion of Pythagoras is Kabbalah which teaches globe earth.
    NASA/JPL are Freemasonic organizations.
    These are facts.
    If you believe in ball earth and heliocentrism, you adhere to the religion of Pythagoras, even if you won't admit this.
    The God of the Bible nowhere teaches ball earth or heliocentrism. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Pope Pius XII was wrong on evolution
    Pope St. Pius X was wrong on discussing a non-24 hour day
    Pope Leo XIII was wrong to quote St. Augustine in saying discussion of the nature of His Creation is not profitable for salvation
    St Augustine was wrong
    None of these men had a charism of infallibility. 
    They were just wrong.