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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 58642 times)

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Offline Meg

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  • You are interpreting Scripture incorrectly according to Leo XIII, Benedict XV, and Pius XII.  None of these were modernists.

    Since these popes lived long after the Fathers of the Church, it is not possible for the Fathers to have followed their teaching.  Just as there was nothing wrong with questioning the dogma of the Immaculate Conception before it was defined but doing so was a sin afterward, disregarding the teaching that Scripture does not intend to teach science is wrong now in a way it was not before these encyclicals were published.

    The Fathers wrote many things that were wrong, even some that would be sinful to believe now.  Leo XIII explicitly said that some of their ideas about science which they based on Scripture were wrong.

    So you believe that all of those Church Fathers were wrong, and that it is a sin to believe what they taught. Where did Leo Xlll condemn the flat earth? You'll need to be specific. I am asking about the condemnation of the flat earth, so don't go off on a tangent and post other stuff. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • You're being a Catholic incorrectly, Meg!
    :laugh2:
    :facepalm:


    Offline Meg

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  • You're being a Catholic incorrectly, Meg!
    :laugh2:
    :facepalm:

    True, because I don't accept the 'Catechism according to Jayne.'  :)
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Hey, JayneK, I'm rather uncomfortable with your continued use of the terminology that Scripture "did not intend to teach about science" and your attempt to make a radical bifurcation between faith and science.  If Holy Scripture were to have stated, in no uncertain terms, "No, the earth is not shaped like a ball but is flat, etc. etc." then it would be heresy to believe in globe earth.  That was in fact the mind of the Holy Office when it condemned heliocentrism as heretical and contrary to the faith.  And this is also consistent with the mind of St. Pius X and other popes regarding Scripture.  That division between faith and science or, alternatively, faith and history has an extremely modernist savor to it, so I would urge you to abandon that phraseology.

    Indeed, however, Scripture can be read as using metaphorical or relative terminology to describe phenomena rather than scientifically-precise terminology.  So, for instance, people who are heliocentrists would nevertheless use expressions like "the sun rose" or "the sun moved across the sky" ... because they're describing the motion of the sun relative to their own perspective rather than in some absolute scientifc way.  Maybe that's what you mean, that Scripture doesn't always intend to use terms in a absolute or scientifically-precise way.  Similarly, Scripture, when quoting Our Lord, does not always intend to render a direct quote from Our Lord but could be conveying the essence of what He said.

    With regard to the Fathers, indeed most of them believed in a flat earth.  I just don't see any evidence that they regarded it as a matter of faith or a teaching of the Church or, most importantly, a revealed truth that was part of the Deposit and handed down through the Apostles.  They often rejected it as "stupid".  Their "belief" (notice I do not say "faith") in it by itself doesn't rise to the level of its constituting a dogmatic consensus regarding the matter.  And that's consistent with the teaching of Pope Leo XIII.

    So I believe that between the possibility that Scripture is not using precise and absolute scientific terminology and the lack of evidence that there's dogmatic consensus among the Church Fathers on the issue, I consider it an open question vis-a-vis the faith, at least at this point in time.

    I am still open, scientifically, however, where it comes to the possibility of flat earth.  I've seen some very interesting points made by the proponents of flat earth (though there are difficulties with the position as well) and I continue to investigate the issue and keep an open mind about it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • So you believe that all of those Church Fathers were wrong, and that it is a sin to believe what they taught. Where did Leo Xlll condemn the flat earth? You'll need to be specific. I am asking about the condemnation of the flat earth, so don't go off on a tangent and post other stuff.

    Without speaking for her, I don't think she would consider it a "sin" to believe in flat earth, nor would she hold that it's condemned; her issue is with the dogmatic flat earthers who insist that it's a matter of faith (i.e. almost de fide) and that those who think otherwise are not Catholics or at the very least bad Catholics.


    Offline Meg

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  • Without speaking for her, I don't think she would consider it a "sin" to believe in flat earth, nor would she hold that it's condemned; her issue is with the dogmatic flat earthers who insist that it's a matter of faith (i.e. almost de fide) and that those who think otherwise are not Catholics or at the very least bad Catholics.

    Those flat-earthers who believe that it is De Fide are a definite minority. And I don't see any indication that Jayne is limiting her criticism only toward them. I can only think of one who believes that it's a matter of faith.

    I do see that she believes that we are not allowed to believe in a scriptural basis for a flat earth. We are going to disagree, of course. She implied indirectly that Pope Leo condemned the idea of a flat earth. So I would like her to show where he stated this. And why would she even mention the "sin" thing if she doesn't believe it's sinful to believe in a flat earth. Why mention it at all?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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  • Hey, JayneK, I'm rather uncomfortable with your continued use of the terminology that Scripture "did not intend to teach about science" and your attempt to make a radical bifurcation between faith and science.  If Holy Scripture were to have stated, in no uncertain terms, "No, the earth is not shaped like a ball but is flat, etc. etc." then it would be heresy to believe in globe earth.  That was in fact the mind of the Holy Office when it condemned heliocentrism as heretical and contrary to the faith.  And this is also consistent with the mind of St. Pius X and other popes regarding Scripture.  That division between faith and science or, alternatively, faith and history has an extremely modernist savor to it, so I would urge you to abandon that phraseology.

    Indeed, however, Scripture can be read as using metaphorical or relative terminology to describe phenomena rather than scientifically-precise terminology.  So, for instance, people who are heliocentrists would nevertheless use expressions like "the sun rose" or "the sun moved across the sky" ... because they're describing the motion of the sun relative to their own perspective rather than in some absolute scientifc way.  Maybe that's what you mean, that Scripture doesn't always intend to use terms in a absolute or scientifically-precise way.  Similarly, Scripture, when quoting Our Lord, does not always intend to render a direct quote from Our Lord but could be conveying the essence of what He said.

    With regard to the Fathers, indeed most of them believed in a flat earth.  I just don't see any evidence that they regarded it as a matter of faith or a teaching of the Church or, most importantly, a revealed truth that was part of the Deposit and handed down through the Apostles.  They often rejected it as "stupid".  Their "belief" (notice I do not say "faith") in it by itself doesn't rise to the level of its constituting a dogmatic consensus regarding the matter.  And that's consistent with the teaching of Pope Leo XIII.

    So I believe that between the possibility that Scripture is not using precise and absolute scientific terminology and the lack of evidence that there's dogmatic consensus among the Church Fathers on the issue, I consider it an open question vis-a-vis the faith, at least at this point in time.

    I am still open, scientifically, however, where it comes to the possibility of flat earth.  I've seen some very interesting points made by the proponents of flat earth (though there are difficulties with the position as well) and I continue to investigate the issue and keep an open mind about it.
    When I say that "Scripture did not intend to teach about science" I am trying to paraphrase Leo XIII saying "the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation.""  I have quoted Providentissimus Deus enough that I expect people to recognize my phrase as an allusion to the encyclical and realize that I mean just what it means.  I do not intend to separate faith and science any more than it does.  

    I can see that you are using the phrase "Scripture doesn't always intend to use terms in a absolute or scientifically-precise way".  That is just what I have been trying to say all along.  Do you really think it will be clearer to people if I put it that way?

    I also agree with you about how we should understand what the Fathers have written on the subject of flat earth and have tried to make the same point. Therefore I agree with your conclusion that there is no basis to say that Catholics must accept flat earth as a matter of faith.

    Without speaking for her, I don't think she would consider it a "sin" to believe in flat earth, nor would she hold that it's condemned; her issue is with the dogmatic flat earthers who insist that it's a matter of faith (i.e. almost de fide) and that those who think otherwise are not Catholics or at the very least bad Catholics.

    Yes.  That is exactly right.  I do not object to belief in flat earth, in itself.  If you were to conclude that the earth is flat I would respect that.  You would not be basing your belief on a misunderstanding of how to interpret Scripture.  

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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  • Einstein groupie Jaynek does not believe Benedict XV's encyclical that says even the individual words of the Bible are infallible.

    She doesn't believe the Latin word firmamentum in Genesis means solid and strong.

    The only troll here is the one who suddenly appeared from SD a month ago to mock Catholics who believe what God reveals about His Creation in the Bible.
    That's cool about The Firmament or Firmamentum.  I've been wondering where that crystal dome thing came from.   8)
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline Jaynek

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  • Those flat-earthers who believe that it is De Fide are a definite minority. And I don't see any indication that Jayne is limiting her criticism only toward them. I can only think of one who believes that it's a matter of faith.

    I do see that she believes that we are not allowed to believe in a scriptural basis for a flat earth. We are going to disagree, of course. She implied indirectly that Pope Leo condemned the idea of a flat earth. So I would like her to show where he stated this. And why would she even mention the "sin" thing if she doesn't believe it's sinful to believe in a flat earth. Why mention it at all?
    Almost all of you write as if believing in flat earth made you better Catholics and associate belief in globe earth with Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and other errors.  You don't have to use the words "de fide" to act like this is a matter of faith.

    You are treating the language used in Scripture as if it were scientific terminology and distorting its meaning, in spite of Pope Leo XIII saying not to do this.  So yes, I object to that.  I am not however implying that he condemned the idea of a flat earth.  It's obvious that he did not say anything about flat earth.  I have no idea how you got the idea that thought he was.

    I mentioned "sin" in an analogy to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  I was saying Church Fathers could have written things about it that would be a sin to believe today, even though it was not a sin to do so before it was defined as a dogma. That does not imply that flat earth is a sin.  I just wanted a clear illustration of how Fathers could be wrong.

    Offline Meg

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  • Almost all of you write as if believing in flat earth made you better Catholics and associate belief in globe earth with Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and other errors.  You don't have to use the words "de fide" to act like this is a matter of faith.

    You are treating the language used in Scripture as if it were scientific terminology and distorting its meaning, in spite of Pope Leo XIII saying not to do this.  So yes, I object to that.  I am not however implying that he condemned the idea of a flat earth.  It's obvious that he did not say anything about flat earth.  I have no idea how you got the idea that thought he was.

    I mentioned "sin" in an analogy to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  I was saying Church Fathers could have written things about it that would be a sin to believe today, even though it was not a sin to do so before it was defined as a dogma. That does not imply that flat earth is a sin.  I just wanted a clear illustration of how Fathers could be wrong.

    Of course it's obvious Pope Leo did not say anything about the flat earth. He never condemned it, and he NEVER condemned those Fathers of the Church who wrote about the flat earth. So you are wrong to say that we cannot take a scriptural basis for something that Fathers of the Church have already used a scriptural basis for.

    Your view that we can't base on scripture is moot. We are not treating scripture with some new-fangled view - it's a view that's already been described by the Church Fathers. We aren't inventing anything new. YOU are the one who is terribly uncomfortable with what the Church Fathers wrote regarding the earth. We are not uncomfortable with it.

    I don't know of anything that the Church Fathers wrote that would now be considered a sin. It's quite ridiculous for you to even mention that. The globe earth is never likely to be defined as a dogma of the Church. You're out of luck there, Jayne.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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  • Of course it's obvious Pope Leo did not say anything about the flat earth. He never condemned it, and he NEVER condemned those Fathers of the Church who wrote about the flat earth. So you are wrong to say that we cannot take a scriptural basis for something that Fathers of the Church have already used a scriptural basis for.

    Your view that we can't base on scripture is moot. We are not treating scripture with some new-fangled view - it's a view that's already been described by the Church Fathers. We aren't inventing anything new. YOU are the one who is terribly uncomfortable with what the Church Fathers wrote regarding the earth. We are not uncomfortable with it.
    Pope Leo did not condemn the Fathers but he made it very clear that they could be wrong.

    Quote
    The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. 
    As the encyclical says next, when discussing physical matters, unless the Fathers unanimously and explicitly identify it as pertaining to faith, they are expressing their personal opinions.  Anything that does not fit those criteria cannot be treated as a Catholic interpretation of Scripture.

    I am not uncomfortable with what they wrote.  I object to you disregarding Pope Leo and treating their personal opinions on flat earth as somehow binding on Catholics or as a model for interpreting Scripture.



    Offline Meg

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  • Pope Leo did not condemn the Fathers but he made it very clear that they could be wrong.
    As the encyclical says next, when discussing physical matters, unless the Fathers unanimously and explicitly identify it as pertaining to faith, they are expressing their personal opinions.  Anything that does not fit those criteria cannot be treated as a Catholic interpretation of Scripture.

    I am not uncomfortable with what they wrote.  I object to you disregarding Pope Leo and treating their personal opinions on flat earth as somehow binding on Catholics or as a model for interpreting Scripture.

    We are allowed to treat scripture in a way that the Church Fathers treated it. It has not been condemned by any authority to do so. It doesn't matter that it's not Church teaching that the earth is flat. It wasn't Church teaching when the Church Fathers described it either. So what. Get over it. It's not forbidden to believe in a flat earth, as the Church Fathers did.

    You object to a great many things, Jayne, so it's not surprising that you think we are rejecting Church teaching. Accusing Catholics of rejecting Church teaching is a coward's way out. There's no teaching that say that we cannot believe in a flat earth. I'll keep reminding you of that. Over and over again if need be.

    So the latest attack on flat-earthers to accuse them of rejecting Church teaching. Who put you up to this latest accusation? Who are you getting this information from?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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  • We are allowed to treat scripture in a way that the Church Fathers treated it. It has not been condemned by any authority to do so. It doesn't matter that it's not Church teaching that the earth is flat. It wasn't Church teaching when the Church Fathers described it either. So what. Get over it. It's not forbidden to believe in a flat earth, as the Church Fathers did.

    You object to a great many things, Jayne, so it's not surprising that you think we are rejecting Church teaching. Accusing Catholics of rejecting Church teaching is a coward's way out. There's no teaching that say that we cannot believe in a flat earth. I'll keep reminding you of that. Over and over again if need be.
    It is not forbidden to believe in flat earth.  It is incorrect, however, to present flat earth as the true Catholic position, taught by Scripture and the Fathers, as many have done countless times on this forum.  In order to do that, one must reject the Church teaching given in Providentissimus Deus and elsewhere.  

    It is also not forbidden to believe in a spherical earth.  This  belief is not a rejection of Catholicism, Scripture, or the Fathers. It is not an embracing of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ or modernism. It is a completely acceptable view for Catholics that has never be condemned.

    I already know that believing in a flat earth is not condemned so I don't need reminding.  It might be more useful to keep reminding yourself over and over that there is no teaching that people can't believe in a globe earth.

    Offline Jaynek

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  • So the latest attack on flat-earthers to accuse them of rejecting Church teaching. Who put you up to this latest accusation? Who are you getting this information from?
    ::)
    I should not have to say this, but I will.  Nobody put me up to it.  My ideas come from reading Church teaching and thinking about it.

    Offline Meg

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  • It is not forbidden to believe in flat earth.  It is incorrect, however, to present flat earth as the true Catholic position, taught by Scripture and the Fathers, as many have done countless times on this forum.  In order to do that, one must reject the Church teaching given in Providentissimus Deus and elsewhere.  

    It is also not forbidden to believe in a spherical earth.  This  belief is not a rejection of Catholicism, Scripture, or the Fathers. It is not an embracing of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ or modernism. It is a completely acceptable view for Catholics that has never be condemned.

    I already know that believing in a flat earth is not condemned so I don't need reminding.  It might be more useful to keep reminding yourself over and over that there is no teaching that people can't believe in a globe earth.
     
    Church Fathers believed in a flat earth. We ARE NOT rejecting any Church teaching by believing in what the Church Fathers and Scripture describe. 

    You make false accusations. 



    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29