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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 59541 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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  • I agree.
    I don't have any problem with people claiming that science shows the earth is flat and making a case for it that way.  Scientific understanding is constantly changing and needs to be challenged.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Quite a few flat earth believers have posted since this appeared and presumably have read it, as well as my post containing what I actually wrote on SD.  Not one of you has had anything to say about the lack of truth to Smedley's claims.  I did not brag.  I did not use the word "dumb".  I did not state that flat earth folks are not real Catholics nor that they are faking their beliefs.

    The only person to call out Smedley for his falsehoods has been Ladislaus.

    I have seen many claims from flat earth believers that they are motivated by their desire for truth.  I would find these claims more credible if you seemed to care that someone is lying to you about my SD post, apparently for the purpose of inciting a mob against me.  Where is your desire for truth now?
    You would not have told the flat earthers here you were studying them like zoo animals to report back there to gossip about them.
    You're just whining because you got caught, which you didn't plan for.
    You disrespect the good will of the flat earth folks here who are willing to honestly engage those who disagree with them. 


    Offline Truth is Eternal

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  • The Catholic Church teaches us to discover the shape of the earth by using science rather than reading meanings into Scripture that it was never intended to have.
    Meg is right; The Catholic Church does not teach that the earth is a globe.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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  • You would not have told the flat earthers here you were studying them like zoo animals to report back there to gossip about them.
    You're just whining because you got caught, which you didn't plan for.
    You disrespect the good will of the flat earth folks here who are willing to honestly engage those who disagree with them.
    I consider any disrespect towards flat earthers by globe earthers unable to disprove the flat earth horizon, as helping our flat earth cause. I say, "BRING IT ON. WE WILL FLATTEN YOU." :popcorn: :incense: :applause:

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • The Catholic Church teaches us to discover the shape of the earth by using science rather than reading meanings into Scripture that it was never intended to have.
    The Catholic church teaches no such thing. 
    The Church teaches we are to believe what is divinely revealed in the Bible and Tradition,  the Deposit of Faith.
    The Church does not teach us to discover things for ourselves.
    The only legitimate use of science is that which is used to confirm what the Bible has revealed.


    Offline happenby

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  • The Catholic Church teaches us to discover the shape of the earth by using science rather than reading meanings into Scripture that it was never intended to have.
    Excuse me? It would do you well to not make stuff up.  Where did you get such a notion that the Church teaches such a ridiculous thing? 
    Ah, I actually know where you got it.  From the fallout of the Galileo Affair designed to destroy Faith.  Because you reject the teachings of the Holy Office.  You say it yourself constantly.  But in your statement above, you've relegated Scripture to obscurity, suggesting that on this matter it is cryptic nonsense no one can understand, all because you prefer the pagan science the Church condemned.  

    Offline Jaynek

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  • So far as I have seen you have only provided Leo XIII which is not a very clear quote anyway in reference to globe earthism.
    Pope Leo XIII's teaching in Providentissimus Deus (1893) was not a reference to the shape of the earth but a general principle of Scriptural exegesis that applies to all matters of the physical order.  It was explicitly reiterated and confirmed by Pope Pius XII in Divino Afflanto Spiritu (1943):
    Quote
    The first and greatest care of Leo XIII was to set forth the teaching on the truth of the Sacred Books and to defend it from attack. Hence with grave words did he proclaim that there is no error whatsoever if the sacred writer, speaking of things of the physical order "went by what sensibly appeared" as the Angelic Doctor says,[5] speaking either "in figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even among the most eminent men of science." For "the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately - the words are St. Augustine's - [6] the Holy Spirit, Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things - that is the essential nature of the things of the universe - things in no way profitable to salvation"; 
    Here is a paraphrase:
    Sacred writers when speaking of things of the physical order referred to the way things appeared to the physical senses in the terms commonly used in their time.  The Sacred writers, that is, the Holy Spirit speaking through them, did not intend to teach men about things of the physical order (physical science) since these do not concern salvation.

    Applying this to the shape of the earth, it is clear that this concerns the nature of the physical universe and is not relevant to salvation.  The Sacred writers and the Holy Spirit writing through them did not intend to teach about the shape of the earth.  Any references to this were made based on how the earth appeared to the senses using the terminology of their time.  If they used phrases that suggest the earth is flat, that does not necessarily mean the earth is actually flat, only that it appeared flat and was spoken of that way at the time.  

    If the earth is proven by science to be a globe, this is not an error on the part of Scripture.  If the earth is flat, it must  be shown, not by Scripture, but by science.  The sacred writers and the Holy Spirit did not intend Scripture to teach about things of the physical order.

    Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus (1920), while not going into as much detail Pius XII said " to hold fast to the principles laid down in the Encyclical Providentissimus Deus"  and warned against a way it was being misapplied in his time.  (There were people who, by claiming an analogy between science and history, were trying to undermine the Bible as history.)

    Three popes, drawing on the teaching of St. Basil, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Auinas, all taught that we must interpret Scripture bearing in mind that it does not intend to teach about physical science.  I do not see how it is possible to deny that this is Church teaching.

    Offline Jaynek

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  • Excuse me? It would do you well to not make stuff up.  Where did you get such a notion that the Church teaches such a ridiculous thing?  
    Ah, I actually know where you got it.  From the fallout of the Galileo Affair designed to destroy Faith.  Because you reject the teachings of the Holy Office.  You say it yourself constantly.  But in your statement above, you've relegated Scripture to obscurity, suggesting that on this matter it is cryptic nonsense no one can understand, all because you prefer the pagan science the Church condemned.  
    It appears that I accept the teaching of the Holy Office more than you do.  I accept both the original condemnation of heliocentrism and the later withdrawal of the condemnation.  You apparently choose only to accept the former.

    The Church's teaching on Scripture does not relegate it to obscurity nor does the Church suggest that it is cryptic nonsense no one can understand.  She does, however, point out that it takes careful study.  


    Offline Jaynek

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  • You would not have told the flat earthers here you were studying them like zoo animals to report back there to gossip about them.
    You're just whining because you got caught, which you didn't plan for.
    You disrespect the good will of the flat earth folks here who are willing to honestly engage those who disagree with them.
    It is rather sad that your fellow flat earthers tolerate your obvious lies merely because you take the "right" position on flat earth.  It looks like none of you care very much about truth.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Pope Leo XIII's teaching in Providentissimus Deus (1893) was not a reference to the shape of the earth but a general principle of Scriptural exegesis that applies to all matters of the physical order.  It was explicitly reiterated and confirmed by Pope Pius XII in Divino Afflanto Spiritu (1943):Here is a paraphrase:
    Sacred writers when speaking of things of the physical order referred to the way things appeared to the physical senses in the terms commonly used in their time.  The Sacred writers, that is, the Holy Spirit speaking through them, did not intend to teach men about things of the physical order (physical science) since these do not concern salvation.

    Applying this to the shape of the earth, it is clear that this concerns the nature of the physical universe and is not relevant to salvation.  The Sacred writers and the Holy Spirit writing through them did not intend to teach about the shape of the earth.  Any references to this were made based on how the earth appeared to the senses using the terminology of their time.  If they used phrases that suggest the earth is flat, that does not necessarily mean the earth is actually flat, only that it appeared flat and was spoken of that way at the time.  

    If the earth is proven by science to be a globe, this is not an error on the part of Scripture.  If the earth is flat, it must  be shown, not by Scripture, but by science.  The sacred writers and the Holy Spirit did not intend Scripture to teach about things of the physical order.

    Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus (1920), while not going into as much detail Pius XII said " to hold fast to the principles laid down in the Encyclical Providentissimus Deus"  and warned against a way it was being misapplied in his time.  (There were people who, by claiming an analogy between science and history, were trying to undermine the Bible as history.)

    Three popes, drawing on the teaching of St. Basil, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Auinas, all taught that we must interpret Scripture bearing in mind that it does not intend to teach about physical science.  I do not see how it is possible to deny that this is Church teaching.
    There is nothing in Pope Pius XII Divino Afflante that states what you claim.
    http://www.bible-researcher.com/divinoafflante.html

    Offline kiwiboy

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  • I don't have any problem with people claiming that science shows the earth is flat and making a case for it that way.  Scientific understanding is constantly changing and needs to be challenged.

    Then go study it before commenting on the flat earth.


    Offline kiwiboy

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  • Pope Leo XIII's teaching in Providentissimus Deus (1893) was not a reference to the shape of the earth but a general principle of Scriptural exegesis that applies to all matters of the physical order.  It was explicitly reiterated and confirmed by Pope Pius XII in Divino Afflanto Spiritu (1943):Here is a paraphrase:
    Sacred writers when speaking of things of the physical order referred to the way things appeared to the physical senses in the terms commonly used in their time.  The Sacred writers, that is, the Holy Spirit speaking through them, did not intend to teach men about things of the physical order (physical science) since these do not concern salvation.

    Applying this to the shape of the earth, it is clear that this concerns the nature of the physical universe and is not relevant to salvation.  The Sacred writers and the Holy Spirit writing through them did not intend to teach about the shape of the earth.  Any references to this were made based on how the earth appeared to the senses using the terminology of their time.  If they used phrases that suggest the earth is flat, that does not necessarily mean the earth is actually flat, only that it appeared flat and was spoken of that way at the time. 

    If the earth is proven by science to be a globe, this is not an error on the part of Scripture.  If the earth is flat, it must  be shown, not by Scripture, but by science.  The sacred writers and the Holy Spirit did not intend Scripture to teach about things of the physical order.

    Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus (1920), while not going into as much detail Pius XII said " to hold fast to the principles laid down in the Encyclical Providentissimus Deus"  and warned against a way it was being misapplied in his time.  (There were people who, by claiming an analogy between science and history, were trying to undermine the Bible as history.)

    Three popes, drawing on the teaching of St. Basil, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Auinas, all taught that we must interpret Scripture bearing in mind that it does not intend to teach about physical science.  I do not see how it is possible to deny that this is Church teaching.

    This is typical 19th/20th century speak where everything is vague and unclear.

    If they had wanted to say the earth was a globe, they would have said it. BUT THEY DONT.

    So can't use this to support your argument. It is too vague. Our quotations from the fathers and the Holy office on the other hand are VERY clear.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Jaynek told a huge lie: that the Church said Bible does not pretend to teach science.

    The Church never said that.

    Galileo did.

    Galileo is the one who said these things did not concern our salvation, and not matters of the faith, not the Church. 


    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Again Jaynek tells a big lie: Pope Leo XIII says no such thing as she claims. 
    Read it for yourself,  especially paragraph 15:

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html

    Offline Smedley Butler

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  • Her many lies about what the Church teaches regarding exegesis and science have spread halfway around the world before the truth got its pants on.