Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 59266 times)

0 Members and 74 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jaynek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4161
  • Reputation: +2305/-1226
  • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Where have any of those who support the flat earth said that it is a dogma?

    An Even Seven falsely accuses forum members all the time of being heretics if they do not accept his view of the state of the Church. You don't seem to have a problem with that.
    It is rarely said explicitily to be a dogma but this is often implied.

    It bothers me most of the time when posters refer to other posters as heretics.  If I said something every time it happened, I would not have time to post about anything else.  My silence does not indicate that I do not have a problem with it.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church does not refer to decrees made by anyone other than the pope as "papal decrees".  The word "papal" in this term indicates that it is made directly by a pope.  The 1633 condemnation does not fall in this category.  

    Yes, popes beyond that did reverse the decrees against heliocentrism.  Pope Pius VII explicitly used the word "decree" to state that Catholics could hold heliocentrism.  It was a clear binding and authoritative statement and you are apparently rejecting it.

    Where is an official copy of the decree that states that Catholics can hold the heliocentric view?

    In doing a google search, all I came up with is a mention of a decree by Pope Pius Vll in which he said that books which describe heliocentrism could be published.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is rarely said explicitily to be a dogma but this is often implied.

    It bothers me most of the time when posters refer to other posters as heretics.  If I said something every time it happened, I would not have time to post about anything else.  My silence does not indicate that I do not have a problem with it.

    Implied how? Because we do not sit down and shut up about the flat earth, as you and others would like us to?

    Your silence does indicate that you do not have a problem with An Even Seven calling other forum members heretics, especially since you make false accusations against those who support the flat earth, as he does. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Carissima

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 782
    • Reputation: +569/-229
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is no such thing as ‘dogmatic flatearthers’ that is the lamest term I’ve heard in awhile. 
    The earth is either flat or it’s not, therefore an objective truth is to be found somewhere. If it’s not flat and stationary, then according to ‘science people’ we are on a spinning ball flying through endless space. (Sungenis’ theory is too full of holes to be considered here) So which is it? Hmm, kinda does matter, it’s the ground you walk on everyday right? It’s the ground Jesus Walked on as well. 
    Those who say it doesn’t matter ‘it could be flat or round who cares’, do not have a real love of truth, and they certainly don’t belong in a discussion about the facts surrounding this topic, only to continually pipe in to say ‘it doesn’t matter’. Maybe it’s time to stop with the opinions on which pope said what and whether or not it was infallible and start looking into the objective truths, readily available, on the very foundation of your physical world. 

    There is a mountain of facts and evidence presented not only here but so many other places, that this is a 
    ‘Globe Deception’ and it is meant for our undoing. Who would be behind a deception so monstrous and meant for our destruction? I think that was covered here already. 
    I want no part of this deception and refuse to pass it on to my children and the next generations to come. 

    Immaculate Heart of Mary intercede for Us!

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where is an official copy of the decree that states that Catholics can hold the heliocentric view?

    In doing a google search, all I came up with is a mention of a decree by Pope Pius Vll in which he said that books which describe heliocentrism could be published.

    Quote
    Vol. I, fol. 174v (Bruni, scribe)

    The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Optics and Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII. Previously, His Holiness had referred this request to the Supreme Sacred Congregation and concurrently to the consideration of the Most Eminent and Most Reverend General Cardinal Inquisitor. His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors. He has, moreover, suggested the insertion of several notations into this work, aimed at demonstrating that the above mentioned affirmation [of Copernicus], as it is has come to be understood, does not present any difficulties; difficulties that existed in times past, prior to the subsequent astronomical observations that have now occurred. [Pope Pius VII] has also recommended that the implementation [of these decisions] be given to the Cardinal Secretary of the Supreme Sacred Congregation and Master of the Sacred Apostolic Palace. He is now appointed the task of bringing to an end any concerns and criticisms regarding the printing of this book, and, at the same time, ensuring that in the future, regarding the publication of such works, permission is sought from the Cardinal Vicar whose signature will not be given without the authorization of the Superior of his Order.

    Original Latin source: W. Brandmüller and E.J. Greipl, eds., Copernicus, Galileo, and the Church: The End of the Controversy (1820), Acts of the Holy Office (Florence: Leo Olschki, 1992), pp. 300-301.
    http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric

    I asked for an official copy of the decree to which you were referring. That's not what you provided. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is no such thing as ‘dogmatic flatearthers’ that is the lamest term I’ve heard in awhile.
    The earth is either flat or it’s not, therefore an objective truth is to be found somewhere. If it’s not flat and stationary, then according to ‘science people’ we are on a spinning ball flying through endless space. (Sungenis’ theory is too full of holes to be considered here) So which is it? Hmm, kinda does matter, it’s the ground you walk on everyday right? It’s the ground Jesus Walked on as well.
    Those who say it doesn’t matter ‘it could be flat or round who cares’, do not have a real love of truth, and they certainly don’t belong in a discussion about the facts surrounding this topic, only to continually pipe in to say ‘it doesn’t matter’. Maybe it’s time to stop with the opinions on which pope said what and whether or not it was infallible and start looking into the objective truths, readily available, on the very foundation of your physical world.

    There is a mountain of facts and evidence presented not only here but so many other places, that this is a
    ‘Globe Deception’ and it is meant for our undoing. Who would be behind a deception so monstrous and meant for our destruction? I think that was covered here already.
    I want no part of this deception and refuse to pass it on to my children and the next generations to come.

    Immaculate Heart of Mary intercede for Us!

    Well said, Carissima! You don't post very often, but I always like reading what you post. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Carissima

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 782
    • Reputation: +569/-229
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • To answer the OP’s topic, single most compelling truth, which caused me to explore further, there is no curvature. 

    Scripture describes foundations and an immovable earth with a Firmament. 

    ‘Modern science people’ describe a spinning wobbling racing ball in an endless space. 

    Here on earth as I look to The Heavens above, they are truly beyond the sky on the other side of the Firmament, and not so far away that I cannot fathom their location. God the Holy Trinity, Mary, the Angels and Saints are so very close, there is no endless space to separate us. That is a beautiful thing isn’t it ? 


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I asked for an official copy of the decree to which you were referring. That's not what you provided.
    What makes you think this is not official?  It can also be found on the Vatican Observatory site, along with the explanation:
    Quote
    The 1820 decree under Pope Pius VII removing all remaining prohibitions against the Copernican system. This arose from the request of Fr. Giuseppe Settele for an imprimatur on his book Elementi di ottica e di astronomia (Elements of Optics and Astronomy), which referenced Earth’s motion. The request was denied; Settele appealed to the Pope.


    This translation is from the Interdisciplinary Encyclopedia of Religion and Science (Inters.org), which is edited by the Advanced School for Interdisciplinary Research, operating at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross, Rome, and directed by Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti. The translation is from the original Latin provided in W. Brandmüller and E.J. Greipl, eds., Copernico, Galilei e la chiesa : fine della controversia (1820) : gli atti del Sant’Uffizio {i.e. Copernicus, Galileo, and the Church: The End of the Controversy (1820), Acts of the Holy Office} (Florence: Leo Olschki, 1992), pp. 300-301.
    http://www.vofoundation.org/faith-and-science/galileo/historical-events/
    Both the Vatican Observatory and the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross have papal mandates.  These are official sources. 

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Implied how? Because we do not sit down and shut up about the flat earth, as you and others would like us to?

    Your silence does indicate that you do not have a problem with An Even Seven calling other forum members heretics, especially since you make false accusations against those who support the flat earth, as he does.
    Just earlier today you yourself used the phrase "problems associated with the globe earth theory, regarding its promotion of secular humanism". (Post #156 of this thread)

    This is clearly implies that Catholics may not hold that the earth is a globe because to do so promotes an erroneous, anti-Catholic belief system.  You are implying that the only position that Catholics may hold without sinning is that the earth is flat.  You fall short of explicitly claiming that flat earth is a Church dogma, but your posts are full of comments that imply it is the only licit position for Catholics.  This was just one example.

    If you insist on reading into my silence the opposite of what I have told you I actually think, I cannot stop you.  

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't accuse forum members of being heretics all the time. Just those who obstinately hold the heretical opinion that heretics are Catholic. Not being a Sedevacantist does not make one a heretic.

    You're conflating a couple different things.  Yes, it's heresy to say that heretics are Catholic.  That's obvious from a plethora of dogmatic definitions.  No, it's not heresy to say that Catholics who have fallen into heresy can hold office in the Church ... at least materially.  No, it's not heresy to say that heresy must be established by some due process or discerned by competent authority before it excludes from membership in the Church.


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are papal decrees and statements saying that heliocentrism is acceptable.  All the formerly forbidden works on heliocentrism were removed from the Index.  How is this "zero"?
    As shown in the threads here, the Index maintains its moral force, according to Card Ottaviani and even Benedict XVI. 

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric

    Do we have the original of this alleged decree?  Based on this second-hand source, I would question its authority.  You've said it is "binding".  Well, binding in the sense that it must be considered permitted (once the actual source is verified) and that Catholics who are geocentrists cannot consider heliocentrists to be non-Catholic.  It falls well short of endorsing heliocentrism.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is no such thing as ‘dogmatic flatearthers’ that is the lamest term I’ve heard in awhile.

    Sure there are.  There are people here on CI who claim that it's heresy to believe in a spherical earth.  If you just happen to believe in flat earth, then you're a regular run-of-the-mill flat-earther, but if you hold that it's a dogmatic truth, i.e. de fide, then you're a DOGMATIC flat-earther.   It's a perfectly legitimate term.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • As shown in the threads here, the Index maintains its moral force, according to Card Ottaviani and even Benedict XVI.
    When a book is removed from the Index that indicates that it is permitted at that point.  That is part of the "moral force" of the Index.  
    If books were eternally forbidden once they had been put on the Index, what would be the point of removing them?