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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..  (Read 58514 times)

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Offline RoughAshlar

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Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2017, 09:29:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 27, 2017, 09:01:50 PM
    :facepalm:
    He gains souls for hell.
    OK Smedley, How does believing that the earth is a globe gain souls for the devil? Is it sinful to believe in the vast globe conspiracy?  Give me the name of one priestly order, SSPX, SSPV any one traditional priest that teaches about flat earth?...or that teaches that believing that the earth is a globe is sinful?

    If it is not sinful to believe the earth is a globe, then what is the benefit of a world wide globular conspiracy?

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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #121 on: December 28, 2017, 02:33:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 27, 2017, 09:08:19 PM
    You stated that you do not accept the 1633 condemnation of heliocentrism.
    And acknowledged you accept Wojtyla's 1996 decree on evolution of the human body and Bergoglio's 2014 decree on the Big Bang and Ratzinger's 2009 decree on alien life.
    The 1633 condemnation was not a papal decree. It was made by a commission. Besides I do accept it. I think it was both justified and binding on Catholics until later popes countermanded it.

    I am not familiar with the other things you mention. It seems unlikely there are decrees on these subjects. Not all writings are decrees. I can't give my opinion on them without reading them.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #122 on: December 28, 2017, 07:54:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on December 27, 2017, 09:08:19 PM
    And acknowledged you accept Wojtyla's 1996 decree on evolution of the human body and Bergoglio's 2014 decree on the Big Bang and Ratzinger's 2009 decree on alien life.
    I tried to locate these alleged "decrees".  I found a papal speech on evolution in 1996 that identified itself as a reflection and a similar papal speech in 2014 that mentioned the Big Bang.  I could not find any papal statements on the subject of alien life in 2009, although the Vatican did host a conference on the subject in that year.

    A papal decree is a binding command or decision by a pope.  Pius VII, for example, made a decree that allowed Catholics to accept heliocentrism.  The two speeches I found were not decrees and I doubt very much any comments on alien life, if they were made at all, were a decree.  

    I did not acknowledge that I accepted any of the so-called "decrees" you listed.  In fact, I was not aware of them.  You are being intellectually dishonest.  
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #123 on: December 28, 2017, 09:18:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 28, 2017, 02:33:14 AM
    The 1633 condemnation was not a papal decree. It was made by a commission. Besides I do accept it. I think it was both justified and binding on Catholics until later popes countermanded it.

    I am not familiar with the other things you mention. It seems unlikely there are decrees on these subjects. Not all writings are decrees. I can't give my opinion on them without reading them.
    No ma'am.  The full binding force of the Church was behind the Holy Office and its decrees, proven by Fr. William Roberts in his book,
    "The Pontifical Decrees Against The Doctrine Of The Earth's Movement And The Ultramontane Defence Of Them".  Catholic writer Paula Haigh also wrote several articles proving this also.  As if the force of the Church's words aren't enough.  Reading the Internet commentary about the 1633 statements that say the decrees weren't infallible does not make it fact.  Its commentary and *it* is what's not infallible.
    Now, why pray tell, would a Catholic try to insist that the actual words the Church spoke, in the clearest and strongest language, is not what the Church taught?  And then try to use plebeian commentators online to defend the opposite position of what the Church said?  

    It almost makes a case for the globe.  This world is upside down indeed.

     
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #124 on: December 28, 2017, 09:43:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 28, 2017, 09:25:53 AM
    Not proven by the Church Teaching mind you, but by Fr. William Roberts...in his book. LOL

    The Pope didn't issue it himself. The Holy Office does not enjoy the gift of Infallibility. Sorry, I know you really want them to have it but Our Lord didn't promise it to them.
    Yea, spoken by one who read the book.  Oh, you didn't read the book?  Of course you didn't.  The process Fr. goes through is thorough and rather epic. He is actually hoping the Church didn't put full force of infallibility behind the decrees.  But the fact that poor Fr. disagreed with the results, finding that it was all binding, made him very sad.  One would hope he converted before he died. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #125 on: December 28, 2017, 10:32:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: RoughAshlar on December 27, 2017, 09:29:44 PM
    OK Smedley, How does believing that the earth is a globe gain souls for the devil? Is it sinful to believe in the vast globe conspiracy?  Give me the name of one priestly order, SSPX, SSPV any one traditional priest that teaches about flat earth?...or that teaches that believing that the earth is a globe is sinful?

    If it is not sinful to believe the earth is a globe, then what is the benefit of a world wide globular conspiracy?

    Surely you have read, on this forum, the problems associated with the globe earth theory, regarding its promotion of secular humanism?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #126 on: December 28, 2017, 10:54:21 AM »
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    • Decrees of the Holy Office are NOT Magisterial but involve the application of Church teaching to specific situations; they lack the notes of infallibility and are in fact reformable.

    But I do not think the Holy Office was mistaken in its condemnation of heliocentrism.  Nevertheless, these condemnations could be viewed as situational in that the way the current heliocentrists were presenting their teaching was harmful to the faith, at least in a practical way.  Something can be true and yet still harmful to the faith ... depending on how it's spun and presented ... and the animus behind it.

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #127 on: December 28, 2017, 11:13:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 28, 2017, 11:00:07 AM
    They are presenting it as if it is a Dogma. It is not and could not be. All the other stuff is beside the point when dealing with the Dogmatic Flatearthers because without it being infallible they have no justification for condemning those who don't agree the Earth is flat.

    Who is presenting it as if it were dogma? You sedes always take things one step further, in hopes that your false accusations will stick in the minds of others who are reading the thread. 



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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #128 on: December 28, 2017, 11:20:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 28, 2017, 11:13:23 AM
    Who is presenting it as if it were dogma? You sedes always take things one step further, in hopes that your false accusations will stick in the minds of others who are reading the thread.
    I am not a sede and I too have that impression.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #129 on: December 28, 2017, 11:22:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 28, 2017, 11:20:56 AM
    I am not a sede and I too have that impression.

    Where have any of those who support the flat earth said that it is a dogma?

    An Even Seven falsely accuses forum members all the time of being heretics if they do not accept his view of the state of the Church. You don't seem to have a problem with that. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #130 on: December 28, 2017, 11:36:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on December 28, 2017, 09:18:25 AM
    No ma'am.  The full binding force of the Church was behind the Holy Office and its decrees, proven by Fr. William Roberts in his book,
    "The Pontifical Decrees Against The Doctrine Of The Earth's Movement And The Ultramontane Defence Of Them".  Catholic writer Paula Haigh also wrote several articles proving this also.  As if the force of the Church's words aren't enough.  Reading the Internet commentary about the 1633 statements that say the decrees weren't infallible does not make it fact.  Its commentary and *it* is what's not infallible.
    Now, why pray tell, would a Catholic try to insist that the actual words the Church spoke, in the clearest and strongest language, is not what the Church taught?  And then try to use plebeian commentators online to defend the opposite position of what the Church said?  

    It almost makes a case for the globe.  This world is upside down indeed.
    I have not denied that the 1633 condemnation was authoritative and binding.  I believe that it was.  It should not, however, be referred to as a papal decree because it was not made directly by a pope.  I was making a point about terminology.

    We know that the condemnation was not infallible because virtually all the popes from the mid 1700s onward, either explicitly or implicitly indicated that it was licit for Catholics to accept heliocentrism.  This would not be possible it it had been infallible. It has nothing to do with Internet commentary.

    The decrees of later popes who said that heliocentrism was permitted are just as authoritative as the 1633 condemnation.  Rejecting either is a rejection of Church authority.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #131 on: December 28, 2017, 11:37:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on December 28, 2017, 10:35:15 AM
    So what?

    Did the Pope issue the condemnation himself?

    Did Our Lord promise the Holy Office or Fr. Roberts that their faith would not fail?
    Ok, so we have the Holy Office of the Roman Catholic Church and we have a priest.  You have zero.  Except the hope that they are wrong. Good luck with that.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #132 on: December 28, 2017, 11:40:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 28, 2017, 11:36:54 AM
    I have not denied that the 1633 condemnation was authoritative and binding.  I believe that it was.  It should not, however, be referred to as a papal decree because it was not made directly by a pope.  I was making a point about terminology.
    We know that the condemnation was not infallible because virtually all the popes from the mid 1700s onward, either explicitly or implicitly indicated that it was licit for Catholics to accept heliocentrism.  This would not be possible it it had been infallible. It has nothing to do with Internet commentary.

    The decrees of later popes who said that heliocentrism was permitted are just as authoritative as the 1633 condemnation.  Rejecting either is a rejection of Church authority.
    The Church calls them decrees.  And so does Fr. Roberts.  Who are you or I to say they are not?  The Church used the terminology, "Say, declare and define".  That is enough.  The Popes beyond that never reversed the decrees which would have to be done in order for their statements to be binding.  They only expressed opinion based on false information.  Heliocentrism has never been proven. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #133 on: December 28, 2017, 11:41:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on December 28, 2017, 11:37:45 AM
    Ok, so we have the Holy Office of the Roman Catholic Church and we have a priest.  You have zero.  Except the hope that they are wrong. Good luck with that.
    There are papal decrees and statements saying that heliocentrism is acceptable.  All the formerly forbidden works on heliocentrism were removed from the Index.  How is this "zero"?
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..
    « Reply #134 on: December 28, 2017, 11:49:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on December 28, 2017, 11:40:11 AM
    The Church calls them decrees.  And so does Fr. Roberts.  Who are you or I to say they are not?  The Church used the terminology, "Say, declare and define".  That is enough.  The Popes beyond that never reversed the decrees which would have to be done in order for their statements to be binding.  They only expressed opinion based on false information.  Heliocentrism has never been proven.
    The Church does not refer to decrees made by anyone other than the pope as "papal decrees".  The word "papal" in this term indicates that it is made directly by a pope.  The 1633 condemnation does not fall in this category.  

    Yes, popes beyond that did reverse the decrees against heliocentrism.  Pope Pius VII explicitly used the word "decree" to state that Catholics could hold heliocentrism.  It was a clear binding and authoritative statement and you are apparently rejecting it.
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