Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence.. (Read 58627 times)

happenby · « **Reply #60 on:** December 23, 2017, 11:30:21 AM »

Quote from: An even Seven on December 23, 2017, 10:06:13 AM

Here we go again. You either have a short memory or are ignorant.
Maybe God did create the Flat Earth. I'm not trying to prove He didn't. I don't care about the science, therefore I can't have "faulty science".
My argument is from you guys trying to prove it from the Fathers and Scripture and therefore turning it into Dogma. This is not the case. There is no Dogma by the Church teaching FE, there is nothing definitive from the Fathers, and Scripture is silent about the shape of the Earth.
Go ahead and try to prove it through science, but when you are condemning people for not believing in FE, this is evil and a distraction from what really matters pertaining to Faith.

So by your own statement, that trying to prove it from the Fathers and Scripture "therefore turns it into Dogma". Wow. Its really all there for you. You answered your own question. And proved FE is Catholic teaching because we certainly proved Fathers of the Church used Scripture to defend FE geocentrism against heliocentrism and there being only two models at the time, with heliocentrism condemned, FE is a certainty.

Meg · « **Reply #61 on:** December 23, 2017, 11:41:42 AM »

Quote from: happenby on December 23, 2017, 11:16:05 AM

Yes, indeed, the point being made above is that the spin-doctor globalists on this thread remain consistent about being inconsistent. They hold no defend-able position, except to maintain the status quo, deflect whatever information comes their way and declare the truth void while they shoot off their mouths hoping to kill the messenger. No matter what the related topic, FE science, FE math, Catholic tradition, it doesn't matter, they just lather, rinse and repeat.

Here is a recap for this particular thread:

1.Globers insist that the majority of saints did not not think earth was flat. When evidence was produced, they deflect and say:
2."The majority of saints who thought earth flat are not enough to believe earth is flat with certainty." So more proofs are provided, but they put up the next deflection.
3.They claim Scripture doesn't say earth is flat. Given more proofs they just hide behind the next bush:
4.They insist the Galileo Affair didn't teach anything infallibly. Given proofs to the contrary, they go to the next hiding place:
5.They say the Galileo Affair had nothing to do with Scripture, the Church or FE, but only moving earth. Besides being given more proofs, also see 1,2 and 3.

Round and round and round they go in their heliocentric-merry-go-round-mind-set. Reminds me of the OJ case. Keep deflecting the evidence while insisting the glove didn't fit.

Now the hardened globers will say the proofs given were insufficient. But either they did not even read the proofs, and/or they never really considered them. The truth is, they are so enamored of the benefits of being "modern with a twist" (geocentric ball), that they can't handle the truth. Guaranteed they don't want to be called stupid the way they do to others. Beyond that, there are some who reject FE for lack of credentials. These types reject the obvious simply because it comes from a lowly place. Once and for all, these slippery tactics prove again and again that entrenched globalists are snobs locked into self worship and human respect to the point that they simply cannot handle the truth.

A very good summary of the problem with the globe-earthers. They do indeed have mindset that goes round and round, like the ball earth that the believe in.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #62 on:** December 23, 2017, 11:46:00 AM »

Quote

."The majority of saints who thought earth flat are not enough to believe earth is flat with certainty."

This is true because most saints didn't even waste their time on the topic. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed but it's not a moral issue. If it was, then why isn't the topic in the catechism?

happenby · « **Reply #63 on:** December 23, 2017, 02:11:37 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 23, 2017, 11:46:00 AM

This is true because most saints didn't even waste their time on the topic. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed but it's not a moral issue. If it was, then why isn't the topic in the catechism?

Now here is a sincere question. Finally!
Pax, I don't really have a sure and complete answer, even for myself, but permit me to hypothesize.
Our Lady of Fatima pray for us.
A notable Catholic, Pope or saint, once wrote (I don't have the reference and hoped someone might remember because I saw it long ago) that Heliocentrism is a denial of the Incarnation. Now, the connection is real, even if it sounds like a reach. So keep this premise in mind and let me explain:
In order for the Great Apostasy to take foothold, leading to the wholesale loss of belief in Scripture, Tradition and the Church, God will permit a Great Apostasy, punish man, conquer present evils and show His Goodness and Omnipotence in a more manifest way and bring about the glory of the Church. Now, while none of this is really new, the truth about creation was permitted to be buried, rejected and forgotten to serve this purpose.
The nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr and Great Apostasy are based in Heliocentrism and scientism, which are the sources of many modern errors like the Big Bang, Godless creation, evolution, scarce resources, global warming, divisions, feminism, abortion, worship of animals, scientific lies that enrich the wealthy, global control, enslavement of man, self worship and occult practices. Heliocentrism is the physical, scientific bulwark of the Luciferian religion, because by it, mankind CHOOSES to believe the Satan's re-creation of the world over God's version of creation. After all, God starts "in the beginning" so Satan had to start there, too. Satan's religion is a "global" affront against God, Scripture and the Church. And guess what? Most everyone believes Satan. I can't tell you how many times I've heard Catholics say about FE passages, "We aren't supposed to understand Scripture literally." Or, regarding Galileo they say, "The Church was wrong." All courtesy of the chaos that comes from a spinning, whirling, barreling, contradictory foundation.
Our Lady made the sun dance at Fatima, a visible reminder that the sun moves, not the earth, which was a massive confirmation of God's version of creation virtually lost after Galileo. Ultimately, through Mary's intercession, all Catholic truth will prevail, the glory of the Church will ensue, Satan's false doctrines will be conquered, and finally, mankind will more readily understand that even in the corporeal, all things point to the Incarnation, that God really was made Man and Jesus is "Emmanuel".

happenby · « **Reply #64 on:** December 23, 2017, 02:35:08 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven on December 23, 2017, 12:22:05 PM

I have read your "proofs" over and over again and there is not anything even remotely explicit. There is nothing from the Fathers, Scripture, Tradition, or Church Dogma that proves the Earth is flat. All you have is some Early Fathers saying they believed the Earth was flat. This does not constitute Dogma. You have nothing to prove this is an Article of Faith.
What you have is a nice big distraction used by the Devil to divert attention away from issues that actually concern Salvation and you are his tools. Wake up and see that this has no importance. Yes we need to believe that God created everything and that he orders all things well. We do not need to know exactly how he did it or what shape it is.

The first premise is that the Church condemned heliocentrism, heliocentrism being the long time home of the ball earth. All courtesy of Copernicus, a Luciferian practitioner and Pythagorus and pagan Greeks preceding him.
The second premise is that the Fathers' who taught anything at all regarding the shape of the earth, taught earth was flat, with a dome, literal pillars, a foundation with four corners, etc. The Fathers taught this BECAUSE Scripture said so. They even digress in the most beautiful descriptions of how this all works. No Fathers teach earth is a ball.

My last post in this thread shows how the Ba'al earth affects all men, so it is no diversion. Belief in the heliocentric globe leads to paganism. In fact, paganism grows out of control because because by that contradictory belief, everything else they believe becomes a contradiction and they lose heart. Thus, apostasy ensues.

Insisting on an infallible statement in order to justify yourself, you miss the Church's point, Scripture's point, the Saints' points, the Fathers' points, all a loss for you. There is no statement per se, but the teaching is there.

happenby · « **Reply #65 on:** December 23, 2017, 03:00:43 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven on December 23, 2017, 02:43:30 PM

This sums it up. There is no statement because the teaching was not revealed; it is not a matter of faith; Scripture is silent as to the shapes as St. Basil says; this type of information is useless for our faith as St. Basil and St. Augustine say.

Again, you miss the point. The Church teaches flat earth because it is scriptural, because the Fathers taught it and not the condemned version, and because Satan's model leads to apostasy.

Truth is Eternal · « **Reply #66 on:** December 23, 2017, 06:16:53 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven on December 23, 2017, 02:43:30 PM

This sums it up. There is no statement because the teaching was not revealed; it is not a matter of faith; Scripture is silent as to the shapes as St. Basil says; this type of information is useless for our faith as St. Basil and St. Augustine say.

Scripture proves the earth is flat and you are too obstinate to see it.

WholeFoodsTrad · « **Reply #67 on:** December 23, 2017, 11:22:13 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven on December 23, 2017, 02:43:30 PM

This sums it up. There is no statement because the teaching was not revealed; it is not a matter of faith; Scripture is silent as to the shapes as St. Basil says; this type of information is useless for our faith as St. Basil and St. Augustine say.

I have a lot of sympathy for at least one of the positions you have taken. However, you say that some posters are over-generalizing, but then you seem to do the same thing. You say that The Bible doesn't say anything about the shape of The Earth. If The Bible says that The Earth isn't moving, how is this not a big deal in an age when most people believe it is spinning at 1000 mph and orbiting The Sun at 67,000 mph? If God is truth and Satan is lies, then don't we have an obligation to the truth, even if we don't include the particulars in The Creed? I mean, is it o.k to lie all you want, so long as it doesn't contradict The Nicene Creed? I thought you were sincere, but now it seems to me that you have been trying to goad Flat Earther's into a fight they can't win, because you've erected a clever straw man, not because you're sincerely interested in doing what's right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to believe you are sincere and just got carried away.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #68 on:** December 23, 2017, 11:50:21 PM »

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The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima was a stark reminder for all, So they may believe, because in the prophesy of Scripture, in the last days the sun, moon and stars will lose their regular motion.
.
The sun at Fatima in 1917 lost its regular motion, for all present to see, first hand.
.
Scientists and irreligious pundits had long been scoffing at this prophesy saying there is no way these bodies could lose their regular motion; and I have spoken to contemporaries (you may have as well) who refuse to think that the sun did what 70,000 people saw it do, on the grounds that it is impossible for the sun to do that. So even today, the scoffers remain, those who refuse to believe.
.
As Our Lady said, this was done so they may believe, and nearly everyone there did in fact believe. She did not promise that the miracle would convert the world.
.
Even those who had come with the intention to ridicule believers, when they saw the sun falling down to earth, changed their hearts in a moment from disbelief to belief.
.
But this fact has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, it has to do with the regular motion of the sun being interrupted.
.
It has to do with a reminder that we are approaching the last days, when not only the sun but the moon and stars will lose their regular motion, and it is a reminder for all that the day will come when not only the sun but the moon and stars will perhaps come loose from their positions in the sky from time immemorial, and they will all begin to fall to the earth, when God rolls up the heavens like a scroll.
.

WholeFoodsTrad · « **Reply #69 on:** December 24, 2017, 12:18:17 AM »

FLAT EARTH | 75 BIBLE VERSES PROVING FLAT EARTH

kiwiboy · « **Reply #70 on:** December 24, 2017, 08:22:08 AM »

Quote from: WholeFoodsTrad on December 23, 2017, 11:22:13 PM

I have a lot of sympathy for at least one of the positions you have taken. However, you say that some posters are over-generalizing, but then you seem to do the same thing. You say that The Bible doesn't say anything about the shape of The Earth. If The Bible says that The Earth isn't moving, how is this not a big deal in an age when most people believe it is spinning at 1000 mph and orbiting The Sun at 67,000 mph? If God is truth and Satan is lies, then don't we have an obligation to the truth, even if we don't include the particulars in The Creed? I mean, is it o.k to lie all you want, so long as it doesn't contradict The Nicene Creed? I thought you were sincere, but now it seems to me that you have been trying to goad Flat Earther's into a fight they can't win, because you've erected a clever straw man, not because you're sincerely interested in doing what's right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to believe you are sincere and just got carried away.

Well said wholefoodtrads.
Lets see what his response is. Because I am not having any joy.

Truth is Eternal · « **Reply #71 on:** December 24, 2017, 12:22:01 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on December 23, 2017, 11:50:21 PM

.
The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima was a stark reminder for all, So they may believe, because in the prophesy of Scripture, in the last days the sun, moon and stars will lose their regular motion.
.
The sun at Fatima in 1917 lost its regular motion, for all present to see, first hand.
.
Scientists and irreligious pundits had long been scoffing at this prophesy saying there is no way these bodies could lose their regular motion; and I have spoken to contemporaries (you may have as well) who refuse to think that the sun did what 70,000 people saw it do, on the grounds that it is impossible for the sun to do that. So even today, the scoffers remain, those who refuse to believe.
.
As Our Lady said, this was done so they may believe, and nearly everyone there did in fact believe. She did not promise that the miracle would convert the world.
.
Even those who had come with the intention to ridicule believers, when they saw the sun falling down to earth, changed their hearts in a moment from disbelief to belief.
.
But this fact has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, it has to do with the regular motion of the sun being interrupted.
.
It has to do with a reminder that we are approaching the last days, when not only the sun but the moon and stars will lose their regular motion, and it is a reminder for all that the day will come when not only the sun but the moon and stars will perhaps come loose from their positions in the sky from time immemorial, and they will all begin to fall to the earth, when God rolls up the heavens like a scroll.
.

Just as God ordained The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima for everyone to believe, God created the flat earth for everyone to believe ,including you; you are not exempt from believing the earth is flat.

WholeFoodsTrad · « **Reply #72 on:** December 24, 2017, 03:20:32 PM »

Quote from: An even Seven on December 24, 2017, 08:57:08 AM

This is what it boils down to. In order for these flat Earthers to continue to treat the FE as if it was Dogma, they would definitely have to come up with the explicit teaching of the Church which says or implies it is revealed Truth. There is no such Dogma. There is not unanimous assent that this is an article of faith by the Fathers. The passages in Scripture which they cite never explicitly say the Earth is flat and the ones that they take as implicitly saying it's flat, there are other meanings that can be given to those passages. Pope Leo XIII explains these things well: "To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost “Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation.”Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers — as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us — “went by what sensibly appeared,” or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to."

It is not appropriate for them to be condemning those who don't believe the Earth is flat. It is not a teaching of the Church. It is not even something that is beneficial for our souls as St. Basil, St. Augustine, and Pope Leo XIII say. I agree that evolution and anything that denies Our Lord as the Creator is evil and would enter the realm of Religion but the shape of the Earth is not.

As for the Geocentricity of the Earth, I don't believe that it was infallibly taught, but I think it's true, at least the Earth is the Spiritual center of the Universe as Pope Benedict XV says: "though this earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ."

As for those that say flat Earth is inseparably linked with Geocentrism, this is nonsense. A round Earth is just as compatible with GC as a FE is. The reason for this is because God is omnipotent and He hasn't revealed otherwise.

I don't care either way, if the flat Earth can be proved by science, then so be it. If not, oh well. This should not impact anyone's faith in the least because it is not a matter of faith.

Quote from: An even Seven on December 24, 2017, 08:57:08 AM

This is what it boils down to. In order for these flat Earthers to continue to treat the FE as if it was Dogma, they would definitely have to come up with the explicit teaching of the Church which says or implies it is revealed Truth. There is no such Dogma. There is not unanimous assent that this is an article of faith by the Fathers. The passages in Scripture which they cite never explicitly say the Earth is flat and the ones that they take as implicitly saying it's flat, there are other meanings that can be given to those passages. Pope Leo XIII explains these things well: "To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost “Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation.”Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers — as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us — “went by what sensibly appeared,” or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to."

It is not appropriate for them to be condemning those who don't believe the Earth is flat. It is not a teaching of the Church. It is not even something that is beneficial for our souls as St. Basil, St. Augustine, and Pope Leo XIII say. I agree that evolution and anything that denies Our Lord as the Creator is evil and would enter the realm of Religion but the shape of the Earth is not.

As for the Geocentricity of the Earth, I don't believe that it was infallibly taught, but I think it's true, at least the Earth is the Spiritual center of the Universe as Pope Benedict XV says: "though this earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ."

As for those that say flat Earth is inseparably linked with Geocentrism, this is nonsense. A round Earth is just as compatible with GC as a FE is. The reason for this is because God is omnipotent and He hasn't revealed otherwise.

I don't care either way, if the flat Earth can be proved by science, then so be it. If not, oh well. This should not impact anyone's faith in the least because it is not a matter of faith.

Thank you for responding. I am not completely in disagreement with you. However, I do have two problems with your post. First, this post is inconsistent. You say,

"I agree that evolution... is evil and would enter the realm of Religion but the shape of the Earth is not."

I have a copy of "My Catholic Faith A Manual Of Religion," by Most Reverend Louis LaRavoire Morrow, D.D. Bishop of Krishnagar 3rd Edition, 1954. This book is used in schools of The Society Of Saint Pious The Tenth and to catechise converts. So, I think it is a good enough authority here.

Reading pgs 38-39 it seems that The Church (pre-vatican II), in a nutshell, taught that you could believe in The Theory Of Evolution, so long as you recognized God as the instigator of it and The Creator of Adam and The Human Soul. Of course, you were not required to believe in The Theory Of Evolution; you could believe in a literal 6 day Creation and a Young Earth, but you didn't have to, in order to be a good Catholic.

"...the theory would not be opposed to Catholic doctrine, which merely requires belief in the immediate creation of Adam's soul, in the image of God. Any evolution was surely begun by an intelligent cause: God." pg 39

This attitude is also expounded on page 29. A quote from the bottom of the page:

"Astronomers assert that some stars are a million light-years from the earth. A Catholic is free to hold on this point whatever he believes is a sound and scientific conclusion."

I'm sorry, but the standard you are applying to the shape of The Earth is much different from the standard you are applying to The General Theory Of Evolution and that isn't appropriate.

To put it even more clearly:

"There can never be a real conflict between Revelation and Science, because they deal with entirely different spheres... The Bible's purpose is to teach salvation; but people make the mistake of considering it a treatise on Science." pg 29

Of course this attitude is also tempered by quotes like,

"True Science is the handmaid of Religion. Science and the scientific method are means of arriving at the truth, and Religion is Truth." pg 29

Or as Organic Farmers like to say, "it's all connected." ~unknown

And this leads into the second problem I have with your post. You say,

"It is not even something that is beneficial for our souls..." and "This should not impact anyone's faith in the least..."

I do not want to insult you, but I am going to tell you, these statements are arrogant and insulting to Traditional Catholics who believe in a Geocentric-Flat Earth. You demean the personal and subjective experiences of everyone on this forum whose faith has been profoundly affected by their belief in a Geocentric-Flat Earth. You pretend to know, how their coming to believe in a Geocentric-Flat Earth has affected their faith in God and The Church. You don't have the power to look that deeply into their souls.

Furthermore, you have no idea how a Geocentric-Flat Earth (taught from a Catholic perspective) is going to affect people's faith in the future. The Baptist Evangelist, Ken Hovind, singlehandedly converted thousands and thousands of dye hard Atheistic men, women and children to faith in Christ, by debunking The General Theory of Evolution, from a Biblical and albeit Protestant perspective (proving once again that God can bring good out of evil).

So, you have no idea how God will use the current revival in Geocentric-Flat Earth thinking.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #73 on:** December 24, 2017, 07:27:20 PM »

Quote from: Truth is Eternal on December 24, 2017, 12:22:01 PM

Quote from: Neil Obstat on Yesterday at 09:50:21 PM
Quote
.
The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima was a stark reminder for all, So they may believe, because in the prophesy of Scripture, in the last days the sun, moon and stars will lose their regular motion. The sun at Fatima in 1917 lost its regular motion, for all present to see, first hand. Scientists and irreligious pundits had long been scoffing at this prophesy saying there is no way these bodies could lose their regular motion; and I have spoken to contemporaries (you may have as well) who refuse to think that the sun did what 70,000 people saw it do, on the grounds that it is impossible for the sun to do that. So even today, the scoffers remain, those who refuse to believe.
As Our Lady said, this was done so they may believe, and nearly everyone there did in fact believe. She did not promise that the miracle would convert the world. Even those who had come with the intention to ridicule believers, when they saw the sun falling down to earth, changed their hearts in a moment from disbelief to belief. But this fact has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, it has to do with the regular motion of the sun being interrupted. It has to do with a reminder that we are approaching the last days, when not only the sun but the moon and stars will lose their regular motion, and it is a reminder for all that the day will come when not only the sun but the moon and stars will perhaps come loose from their positions in the sky from time immemorial, and they will all begin to fall to the earth, when God rolls up the heavens like a scroll.

Just as God ordained The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima for everyone to believe, God created the flat earth for everyone to believe ,including you; you are not exempt from believing the earth is flat.

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Nonsense.
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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #74 on:** December 24, 2017, 07:31:00 PM »

Quote

So, you have no idea how God will use the current revival in Geocentric-Flat Earth thinking. ..

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The problem with this is, there is no revival in flat-earth thinking. It's a myth. And you're being sucked into the myth.
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Author Topic: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence.. (Read 58627 times)

happenby

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Meg

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Pax Vobis

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happenby

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

happenby

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

happenby

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..

Truth is Eternal

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WholeFoodsTrad

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Neil Obstat

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WholeFoodsTrad

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kiwiboy

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Truth is Eternal

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WholeFoodsTrad

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

Re: What do Flat Earthers Believe is the Single Most Compelling Piece of Evidence..