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Author Topic: The Earth is Flat  (Read 28501 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Earth is Flat
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2023, 06:42:18 AM »
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  • Eventually I'll complete my study of the Church Fathers, who were grossly misrepresented and distorted by Dr. Sungenis (applying his own "eisegesis" to them), but by and large when they refer to a "sphere", they're almost always clearly talking about the shape of the entire world, including the firmament.

    This idea that they believed in a ball-shaped earth that people walked on as it floated through space is absurd, and we can't read the "NASA ball" into every reference to a sphere (and even once time a circle), as Sungenis does.

    What is clear is that they all universally believed in a solid firmament and that it was solid enough to hold real physical waters from the face of the earth.  There were debates (some recounted by St. Augustine) regarding the shape of this firmament.  There were debates (recounted by another Father, whose name slips my recall right now) about what it was made of, i.e. how the heavenly luminaries move if the firmament is solid enough to keep water out.  Some argued that the heavenly bodies to not move within the firmament (since it's solid) but that the entire firmament rotates, others that it was made of some substance in between solid and liquid (perhaps like a plasma) where things could move through it, even though it was solid enough to keep waters out.  We also have to recall that they did not have a concept of "gravity", so the notion of things sticking to the bottom of something would be strange and bizarre.  In fact, some of the Father who believed the world to be shaped like a hemisphere believed that because they felt that the heavier elements would sink to the bottom of the cosmic water, while St. Ambrose made a case for how it might be suspended amid the waters.  So they understood density, not gravity.  St. Augustine chimed in by saying it would be acceptable to hold that the earth was at the bottom center of the cosmos (and therefore shaped like a hemisphere), since bottom center is still center.

    So this idea of a ball floating around the vacuum of space at no point entered the minds of any Church Fathers, despite the fact that some try to read it into them.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #91 on: October 19, 2023, 08:23:29 AM »
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  • Eventually I'll complete my study of the Church Fathers, who were grossly misrepresented and distorted by Dr. Sungenis (applying his own "eisegesis" to them), but by and large when they refer to a "sphere", they're almost always clearly talking about the shape of the entire world, including the firmament.

    This idea that they believed in a ball-shaped earth that people walked on as it floated through space is absurd, and we can't read the "NASA ball" into every reference to a sphere (and even once time a circle), as Sungenis does.

    What is clear is that they all universally believed in a solid firmament and that it was solid enough to hold real physical waters from the face of the earth.  There were debates (some recounted by St. Augustine) regarding the shape of this firmament.  There were debates (recounted by another Father, whose name slips my recall right now) about what it was made of, i.e. how the heavenly luminaries move if the firmament is solid enough to keep water out.  Some argued that the heavenly bodies to not move within the firmament (since it's solid) but that the entire firmament rotates, others that it was made of some substance in between solid and liquid (perhaps like a plasma) where things could move through it, even though it was solid enough to keep waters out.  We also have to recall that they did not have a concept of "gravity", so the notion of things sticking to the bottom of something would be strange and bizarre.  In fact, some of the Father who believed the world to be shaped like a hemisphere believed that because they felt that the heavier elements would sink to the bottom of the cosmic water, while St. Ambrose made a case for how it might be suspended amid the waters.  So they understood density, not gravity.  St. Augustine chimed in by saying it would be acceptable to hold that the earth was at the bottom center of the cosmos (and therefore shaped like a hemisphere), since bottom center is still center.

    So this idea of a ball floating around the vacuum of space at no point entered the minds of any Church Fathers, despite the fact that some try to read it into them.

    Not to get into another argument with you about this, but don’t you think that all of this FE stuff would have been exposed during the Galileo trial? To put it another way, if the Church Fathers believed in some sort of FE model, this would have been front and center during the trial, but to my knowledge, FE wasn’t even considered.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #92 on: October 19, 2023, 09:19:39 AM »
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  • Not to get into another argument with you about this, but don’t you think that all of this FE stuff would have been exposed during the Galileo trial? To put it another way, if the Church Fathers believed in some sort of FE model, this would have been front and center during the trial, but to my knowledge, FE wasn’t even considered.
    I think the argument is that it was taken for granted that it was a snow globe and not a globe globe. There are contexts that are like this today where we interpret something phrased back then as something else. 

    Every old looking photo or explanation I can find though doesn't seem to suggest a snow globe though. Like I'm hunting around for old Ptolemaic pictures and what I find are globe globes or at least they look that way with the earth being at the "center" instead of the bottom. I guess if the photos I'm seeing are top down instead of "3d" that may give some evidence to a snow globe conception. Do we have anything that suggests this or an explanation Lad? Or evidence these photos like the one attached are recreations and not originals

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #93 on: October 19, 2023, 10:07:01 AM »
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  • Not to get into another argument with you about this, but don’t you think that all of this FE stuff would have been exposed during the Galileo trial? To put it another way, if the Church Fathers believed in some sort of FE model, this would have been front and center during the trial, but to my knowledge, FE wasn’t even considered.


    My comments in blue, everything else is sourced.

    Your question was covered earlier discussions about flat earth. If you haven't read them, here's a recap with additional information. Although the shape of earth wasn't directly covered at the Galileo trial, the point made on CI was that the Fathers soundly condemned the heliocentric model, and specifically, the movement of earth. As we see in the next paragraph, that was the key offense because o
    nce the enemies of Scripture had the earth moving, it became a spheroid (Encyclopedia Britanica*). However, in only condemning the movement of earth didn't mean they weren't condemning all the heresies that went with the "Pythagorean Doctrine", because they mention all the problems in the docuмents surrounding the trial itself.  Related heresies in the docuмents regarding the dangers of Pythagorean Doctrine (heliocentrism) included transmigration of souls (reincarnation) multiple worlds, and worship of the phallus among other things. They didn't condemn those either, because the entire theory that included the globe was condemned. And those who think earth a geocentric globe is a wild assumption as we'll see.


    *‘The period from Eratosthenes to Picard can be called the spherical era of geodesy.  A new ellipsoidal era was begun by Sir Isaac Newton and Christiaan Huygens. In the Ptolemaic astronomy it had seemed natural to assume that the Earth was an exact sphere with a centre that, in turn, all too easily became regarded as the centre of the entire universe. But, with a growing conviction that the Copernican system is true – the Earth moves around the Sun and rotates around its own axis – and with the advance in mechanical knowledge due chiefly to Newton and Huygens, it seemed natural to conceive the Earth as an oblate spheroid.--- Encyclopaedia Britannica, chapter: Earth, p.535.

    From the book Burned Alive,

    Holy Office condemnation: 'the false Pythagorean doctrine,
    altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture’...

    Pope Urban VIII said the false Pythagorean doctrine was "the most perverse subject matter that one could ever handle"

    because it involved pedophilia, orgies, sodomy, and ritual child sacrifice.



    The cult of Pythagoras was the continuation of the demonic mystery religions he learned in Egypt: the Kabbalah.





    Ambassador Niccolini explained in a letter that the Pope’s concern was not about science: ‘the Pope believes that this involves many dangers for the Faith, not that we are dealing here with mathematical matters, but about the Holy Scripture, about religion and about the Faith.’




    And in April the Pope reiterated the gravity of Galileo’s crime: ‘it pains His Holiness that he [Galilei] has entered into this matter, which he [the Pope] still considers to be extremely grave and of great consequence for the [Catholic] religion.'

    Not only is there no proof that anyone in authority during the Galileo Affair thought the earth was a globe, there is some proof that none of the Church authorities at the Galileo trial were convinced earth was a globe because it was at odds with Scripture.




    In his essay, John Fohne continues his assessment as to why the Holy Office of 1616 condemned the heliocentric heresy of the Earthmovers. ‘Galileoism is the fruit of Gnosticism,’ writes Fohne, a heresy that denied a true literal Genesis.

    Galileo historian AA Martinez from the book Burned Alive

    24th February 1616: The theological qualifiers of the Holy Office censure heliocentrism as heretical. This qualification is not in its own right an ecclesiastical condemnation, but serves as the basis for the authoritative acts which follow. 25th February 1616: Galileo is notified that the Holy See has censured heliocentrism as heretical (showing that the Pope had confirmed the censure in question) and ordered to desist from teaching it or holding it. 5th March 1616: The Sacred Congregation of the Index condemns all heliocentric writings on the grounds of their being contrary to Holy Scripture. 22nd June 1633: Galileo is condemned as vehemently suspect of heresy – namely of holding heliocentrism, and required to abjure it. The Pope orders the text of his condemnation and abjuration to be widely circulated in order to prevent others from falling into the same error. 1664 and 1665: Pope Alexander VII renews with full papal authority the condemnation of all works favouring heliocentrism.

    Pg 135 and 136

    Furthermore, Bellarmine reasserted traditional interpretations of scriptures. So he denied the Earth’s motion. In 1611 Bellarmine quoted Psalm 103:5 from the Latin Vulgate, that God established the Earth on its foundations, it cannot be moved forever and ever’. Bellarmine commented that God put Earth in the centre of the world, and that its ‘weight rests on its eternal stability’.159 He also quoted Psalm 118:8, that God ‘established the Earth and permanently’. Bellarmine explained this phrase: ‘it almost says that you [God] established the Earth immovable, and it always remains immobile.’ He added: ‘God ordained, on the contrary, that heaven or the Sun move always.’160 These statements matter, because they show Bellarmine truly believed that the Earth does not move. So, its motion was not one of the questions he sent to the Collegio Romano. He only asked about the telescopic phenomena Galileo had described. The Earth’s motion had been censured by the consultors of the Inquisition in the works of Bruno. Strangely, historians hardly ever mention this key point when discussing Galileo.


    Here we see that not only did Bellarmine not believe earth moves, he believed God established the earth on foundations. No one even remotely suggests earth somehow has a foundation dangling in space.  Bellarmine and the Pope also tell us that earth is covered by a firmament with water above the firmament.  That also means they didn't believe in outer space.  Inchofer's argument against earth being "a Great Orb" is also telling. 


    Sixth Argument against heliocentrism in the Galileo docuмents, Inchofer

    According to Genesis 1, there are waters in heaven above the firmament and beneath it. ‘Therefore the Earth’s Water is not contained only in the solidity of the Earth, and consequently the natural place of the Earth is not the centre, but possibly, outside it and carried in circular motion in a Great Orb.’ 


    pg217
    Antipodes

    Inchofer cited Lactantius and Augustine for having criticized the theory of the antipodes. In City of God, Augustine denied the antipodes as a ‘fable’ that had not been proved, because, he said, even if the Earth indeed were spherical, one would have to prove that it has lands throughout, not just bare waters, plus, one would have to prove that there were people there, and descended from Adam.224 Augustine preferred biblical and historical evidence over scientific conjectures. Similarly, Inchofer argued that the Earth’s motion was imaginary and false.

    pg 23  (view of Lactanctius)


    In this preface, Copernicus also took the opportunity to criticize those who stupidly argued about mathematical topics without understanding them. In this connection, he briefly criticized Lactantius, an ancient Christian authority, noting that although he was a celebrated writer, he was not a mathematician. Copernicus complained that Lactantius spoke in a childish way about the shape of the Earth, in saying that it is ‘ridiculous’ that its shape is spherical.2 


    Obviously, the theologian, Inchofer's words above, the bishop who summed up the entire Affair, as well as the thoughts of the Pope and St Bellarmine, showed they were not convinced earth is a globe but their focus was upon preserving the literal interpretation of Scripture. If the Pythagorean Doctrine was entirely condemned, where is the lifting of the condemnation of the globe included in the heliocentric theory? 


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #94 on: October 19, 2023, 10:40:31 AM »
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  • if the Church Fathers believed in some sort of FE model, this would have been front and center during the trial
    Non sequitur.

    But I would agree that if Bellarmine et al. believed in some sort of FE model then that would have been front and center during the trial.

    However, Divine Providence required the globular theory to spread in order for the present atheistic apostasy to come about, just as Baptism of Desire was allowed to spread as a foot in the door for Vatican II.

    If one honestly reads just the Fathers instead of second-hand accounts or modern scientists and theologians one will invariably reject both the globe and BoD.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #95 on: October 19, 2023, 10:54:12 AM »
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  • Non sequitur.

    But I would agree that if Bellarmine et al. believed in some sort of FE model then that would have been front and center during the trial.

    However, Divine Providence required the globular theory to spread in order for the present atheistic apostasy to come about, just as Baptism of Desire was allowed to spread as a foot in the door for Vatican II.

    If one honestly reads just the Fathers instead of second-hand accounts or modern scientists and theologians one will invariably reject both the globe and BoD.

    Great points. The Great Apostasy had to happen. Lies and attacks on Scripture and on Baptism were no doubt great strides to that end. Look at the world today.  It's a post Christian era of unbelievers and weak Catholics who place modern science above their Faith. People don't think sacramental baptism is necessary and they all believe in a whirling globe earth born of the mystery religions like Gaia, Freemasons and Kabbalah. It goes to show that evil prevails only when good Catholics do nothing.  
     

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #96 on: October 19, 2023, 10:54:43 AM »
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  • Not to get into another argument with you about this, but don’t you think that all of this FE stuff would have been exposed during the Galileo trial? To put it another way, if the Church Fathers believed in some sort of FE model, this would have been front and center during the trial, but to my knowledge, FE wasn’t even considered.

    No, it didn't come up.  They were specifically examining Sacred Scripture and the Fathers with regard to the contention that the earth moved.  Regardless, no determination was made regarding the shape of the earth ... one way or the other.

    They probably should have looked into it, as the Church Fathers were unanimous that there was a physical firmament that kept physical waters off the earth ... as is clearly found in Sacred Scripture.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #97 on: October 19, 2023, 10:58:47 AM »
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  • Great points. The Great Apostasy had to happen. 

    Correct.  That's also why God allowed "Baptism of Desire" to take hold and the concept to get expanded ... since without it, the Great Apostasy could never have happened, since all of Vatican II depends on it.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #98 on: October 19, 2023, 11:43:12 AM »
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  • Quote
    Eventually I'll complete my study of the Church Fathers, who were grossly misrepresented and distorted by Dr. Sungenis (applying his own "eisegesis" to them), but by and large when they refer to a "sphere", they're almost always clearly talking about the shape of the entire world, including the firmament.
    I definitely would read your study.  Most people would learn a great deal about the Faith, by reading the Church Fathers, especially on doctrinal issues.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #99 on: October 19, 2023, 11:56:50 AM »
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  • No, it didn't come up.  They were specifically examining Sacred Scripture and the Fathers with regard to the contention that the earth moved.  Regardless, no determination was made regarding the shape of the earth ... one way or the other.

    The theory that earth is a globe, intrinsic to the Pythagorean Doctrine heliocentric model, (although not to the geocentric model), was never specifically redeemed from the Holy Office condemnations.
    Someone would have to explain how the globe fits with Scripture, as well as prove that the Church authorities didn't include the globe in the condemnations. Flat earth is a drawn conclusion in this matter, but it's inarguable that the Pythagorean Doctrine and heliocentrism were "altogether condemned", and included the whole of it, because it was extremely dangerous to the Faith and contrary to Scripture. Was the globe excluded?  Why didn't they say so? For the same reason it wasn't necessary to itemize and then condemn every aspect of the false religion. It is included. Catholic authorities condemned two specifics along with the heresy in toto.  Any proof to the contrary is what this discussion is about, so anyone with other information should bring it out in the forum. 

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #100 on: October 19, 2023, 12:08:34 PM »
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  • The theory that earth is a globe, intrinsic to the Pythagorean Doctrine heliocentric model, (although not to the geocentric model), was never specifically redeemed from the Holy Office condemnations.
    Someone would have to explain how the globe fits with Scripture, as well as prove that the Church authorities didn't include the globe in the condemnations. Flat earth is a drawn conclusion in this matter, but it's inarguable that the Pythagorean Doctrine and heliocentrism were "altogether condemned", and included the whole of it, because it was extremely dangerous to the Faith and contrary to Scripture. Was the globe excluded?  Why didn't they say so? For the same reason it wasn't necessary to itemize and then condemn every aspect of the false religion. It is included. Catholic authorities condemned two specifics along with the heresy in toto.  Any proof to the contrary is what this discussion is about, so anyone with other information should bring it out in the forum.
    Utter nonsense. The Church condemned what it condemned, nothing less, nothing more. If the inquisitors meant to condemn the globe they would certainly have said so explicitly at least once in the official acts. But we not only don't see any mention of the issue in the official condemnation, but even private correspondence is completely free of the globe theory.

    However much I wish FE was addressed and the consensus of the Father pointed out to the doubters, it wasn't. 



    Offline Tradman

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #101 on: October 19, 2023, 12:20:05 PM »
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  • Utter nonsense. The Church condemned what it condemned, nothing less, nothing more. If the inquisitors meant to condemn the globe they would certainly have said so explicitly at least once in the official acts. But we not only don't see any mention of the issue in the official condemnation, but even private correspondence is completely free of the globe theory.

    However much I wish FE was addressed and the consensus of the Father pointed out to the doubters, it wasn't.

    The Church condemned heliocentrism more than once.  According to The Earthmovers, both Pope Paul V in 1616 and Pope Urban VIII in 1633 condemned Heliocentrism and the Pythagorean heresies of Galileo. With Urban VIII universally publicizing the verdict:


    Quote
    On 2nd, July 1633, under orders of Pope Urban VIII, the condemnation of heliocentrism was made universally public, not just confined to Galileo alone as some apologists would argue later. Copies of the sentence and Galileo’s abjuration were sent to all vicar nuncios and inquisitors who in turn made them known to professors of philosophy and theology throughout the Catholic world. - Prologue, p. 9

     
    The globe is a necessary component of heliocentrism.  It's not possible they condemned a heresy and not include it's details.  

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #102 on: October 19, 2023, 12:32:49 PM »
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  • The Church condemned heliocentrism more than once.  According to The Earthmovers, both Pope Paul V in 1616 and Pope Urban VIII in 1633 condemned Heliocentrism and the Pythagorean heresies of Galileo. With Urban VIII universally publicizing the verdict:


    Quote
    On 2nd, July 1633, under orders of Pope Urban VIII, the condemnation of heliocentrism was made universally public, not just confined to Galileo alone as some apologists would argue later. Copies of the sentence and Galileo’s abjuration were sent to all vicar nuncios and inquisitors who in turn made them known to professors of philosophy and theology throughout the Catholic world. - Prologue, p. 9

     
    The globe is a necessary component of heliocentrism.  It's not possible they condemned a heresy and not include it's details. 
    The existence of the Earth is also a necessary component of heliocentrism. Who decides which details are implicitly included and which aren't?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #103 on: October 19, 2023, 01:39:05 PM »
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  • You're conflating the two concerns.  Simply because the Church did not hold the book to be inspired Scripture does not meant it was not "written by the Patriarch of that name". 
    It is true that authorship and inspiration are related but not identical concerns.  However, in the case of the wrtings attributed to Enoch, a consensus that he was not the author arose around the same time that the writings were definitively excluded from the Canon of Scripture.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia (pre-Vatican II, with imprimatur) says: 
    Passing to the patristic writers, the Book of Henoch enjoyed a high esteem among them, mainly owing to the quotation in Jude. The so-called Epistle of Barnabas twice cites Henoch as Scripture. Clement of AlexandriaTertullianOrigen, and even St. Augustine suppose the work to be a genuine one of the patriarch. But in the fourth century the Henoch writings lost credit and ceased to be quoted. After an allusion by an author of the beginning of the ninth century, they disappear from view.

    So great was the oblivion into which they fell that only scanty fragments of Greek and Latin versions were preserved in the West. The complete text was thought to have perished when it was discovered in two Ethiopic manuscripts in Abyssinia, by the traveler Bruce in 1773. Since, several more copies in the same language have been brought to light. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: The Earth is Flat
    « Reply #104 on: October 19, 2023, 01:55:16 PM »
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  • Utter nonsense. The Church condemned what it condemned, nothing less, nothing more. If the inquisitors meant to condemn the globe they would certainly have said so explicitly at least once in the official acts. But we not only don't see any mention of the issue in the official condemnation, but even private correspondence is completely free of the globe theory.
    There was no reason for the subject of the shape of the earth to arise because at that point in history it was completely uncontroversial.  Everyone agreed that the earth is a globe. including the inquisitors. This was part of the Ptolemaic (geocentric) model held by the majority, part of Tycho Brahe's model, and left unquestioned by Galileo. Everybody took it for granted.

    How often do we see posts on Cathinfo proving the existence of God?  The topic is rarely, if ever, mentioned because everyone here agrees.  But there hundreds, even thousands, of posts on the subjects where we disagree.