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Author Topic: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth  (Read 12295 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2023, 01:53:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 15, 2023, 01:24:14 PM
    The video claimed that they were giving clear proof that medieval thinkers believed in flat earth. I am not willing to watch it again to quote the exact words.

    Video never claimed that St. Thomas believed in a Flat Earth, nor did he say that all Medieval thinkers believed in a Flat Earth.  I don't think you were paying close enough attention to the actual words he was using.  His main thesis was to dispel the notion that no one since about 500 BC believed that the earth was flat.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #31 on: July 15, 2023, 01:57:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on July 15, 2023, 01:36:34 PM

    Yea, Thomas isn't entirely forthcoming about his final decision, although he does appear to support the Fathers who did not think earth was a globe because of his appreciation for the firmament. As I remember, in his big digression about Aristotle's opinion, Thomas seems to come to the conclusion that if the earth is moving, it's probably a globe, but that if it's stationary, it has to be flat.  In fact, there is a traditional flat earth priest I know who says that, in his personal opinion, that's the proof Thomas didn't believe earth is a globe. 

    That is one tricky aspect of this, that St. Thomas is merely commenting upon Aristotle.  While it may be reasonably inferred that he agrees with Aristotle, it's not 100%, and typically such commentaries would be done earlier in one's career as a Philosopher/Theologian.  Due to an attitude of humility, it would have been considered great hubris for someone to write his own works without first having widely read what others have to say on the matter.  So you started by reading and commenting on what others had written.  It may even have been considered arrogant to disagree with their conclusions at that time.  If you were teaching Aristotle, it would be like explaining what Aristotle was saying rather than writing your own textbook and refuting Aristotle.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #32 on: July 15, 2023, 02:00:45 PM »
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    • One thing I found interesting in a quote from one of the Church Fathers cited by Dr. Sungenis was where the Father in question said that there were many theories about the shape of the earth and that just as soon as one became widely accepted, a new one would pop up, and the old one would be discredited.  He was using that to illustrate the unreliability of scientists in general.  Outside the question of FE proper, this also dispels the notion that the "entire world" believed in NASA's ball-floating-through-space earth model since 500 B.C.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #33 on: July 15, 2023, 02:02:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 15, 2023, 01:53:40 PM
    Video never claimed that St. Thomas believed in a Flat Earth, nor did he say that all Medieval thinkers believed in a Flat Earth.  I don't think you were paying close enough attention to the actual words he was using.  His main thesis was to dispel the notion that no one since about 500 BC believed that the earth was flat.

    By talking about St. Thomas they were giving the impression that he was one of these alleged Medieval thinkers who believed the earth was flat, even if they did not explicitly say it.  They were being dishonest, whatever the actual words were. There was no good reason to mention him at all, since he clearly believed the earth is a sphere and mentioned it multiple places throughout his work.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #34 on: July 15, 2023, 02:03:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 15, 2023, 02:02:12 PM
    By talking about St. Thomas they were giving the impression that he was one of these alleged Medieval thinkers who believed the earth was flat, even if they did not explicitly say it.  They were being dishonest, whatever the actual words were. There was no good reason to mention him at all, since he clearly believed the earth is a sphere and mentioned it multiple places throughout his work.

    You read that into it.  I did not.  He even explicitly stated at one point that he didn't agree with everything St. Thomas said about the shape of the earth.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #35 on: July 15, 2023, 02:07:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 15, 2023, 01:57:51 PM
    That is one tricky aspect of this, that St. Thomas is merely commenting upon Aristotle.  While it may be reasonably inferred that he agrees with Aristotle, it's not 100%, and typically such commentaries would be done earlier in one's career as a Philosopher/Theologian.  Due to an attitude of humility, it would have been considered great hubris for someone to write his own works without first having widely read what others have to say on the matter.  So you started by reading and commenting on what others had written.  It may even have been considered arrogant to disagree with their conclusions at that time.  If you were teaching Aristotle, it would be like explaining what Aristotle was saying rather than writing your own textbook and refuting Aristotle.
    Definitely something to consider.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #36 on: July 15, 2023, 02:09:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 15, 2023, 01:57:51 PM
    That is one tricky aspect of this, that St. Thomas is merely commenting upon Aristotle.  While it may be reasonably inferred that he agrees with Aristotle, it's not 100%, and typically such commentaries would be done earlier in one's career as a Philosopher/Theologian.

    What is ambiguous about saying that Aristotle "determines the truth about [the earth's] shape.  First he proves that the earth is spherical with natural reasons taken on the part of motion; Secondly, with mathematical and astronomical reasons based on sense observations"? One does not refer to something as "the truth" if one is merely commenting on a belief that one does not share.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #37 on: July 15, 2023, 04:04:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: alaric on July 15, 2023, 05:25:28 AM
    Just a question.

    How do flat earthers explain Magellan, Drake and other ships that have circuмnavigated the world if it's not a globe?

    I don't understand how people believe this FE stuff.
    Look at the UN map (it's a FE map).

    Go back and look at the video and you will see that point to which all magnets point (which is called "north") is at the center.

    What we call "south" is the ice wall which circles the FE.

    What we call "circuмnavigation" is actually similar to the path of the sun as seen in the video.

    Finding the truth requires an open mind and the humility to deal with the fact that we've been lied to about evolution, heliocentric, Freemasonic NASA fake flight to the moon, faked Big Blue Marble art work yada yada.

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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #38 on: July 15, 2023, 05:03:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 15, 2023, 02:09:00 PM
    What is ambiguous about saying that Aristotle "determines the truth about [the earth's] shape.  First he proves that the earth is spherical with natural reasons taken on the part of motion; Secondly, with mathematical and astronomical reasons based on sense observations"? One does not refer to something as "the truth" if one is merely commenting on a belief that one does not share.
    Seems pretty unambiguous to me. Just like when the Bible says the flood gates in the firmament were opened.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #39 on: July 15, 2023, 06:03:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on July 15, 2023, 12:39:02 PM

    Please provide unmistakable proof that St. Thomas Aquinas believed earth is a globe.
    .

    There's this quote from the Summa, I-Iae, Art. 1 ad 2um:

    Quote
    For the astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion: that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e. abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself.

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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #40 on: July 15, 2023, 06:09:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on July 14, 2023, 11:11:12 PM

    What propels the sun through the air on a ball earth?

    Do you believe the earth is spinning or the sun revolves around the ball?  In either case, what propels it?

    Is there an explanation for what makes it go in a circle rather than another direction?
    .

    The movement of the heavenly bodies is a mystery in every system of astronomy, but since they clearly move, something is obviously moving them.

    It is definitely possible for one heavenly body to orbit another. Even if you don't believe in the moon orbiting the earth, anyone with even a cheap telescope can see the moons of Jupiter orbiting that planet, so that type of motion is definitely possible. It is completely reasonable to say that the sun and moon move around the earth in the same type of movement as we see the moons of Jupiter orbiting that planet.

    But there is no otherwise observable example of the type of movement that flat earthers posit is how the sun and moon move around the earth. This is another major problem with flat earth theory.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #41 on: July 15, 2023, 06:36:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on July 15, 2023, 06:03:09 PM
    There's this quote from the Summa, I-Iae, Art. 1 ad 2um:

    That's actually rather weak, as "round" can mean a number of things.  Better citation would be from his commentary on Aristotle.  Even then, it's not 100% clear whether he's merely explaining Aristotle or advocating his own position, something which gets a little blurry in commentaries.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #42 on: July 15, 2023, 06:44:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on July 14, 2023, 08:43:26 PM
    What propels the sun through the air in the flat earth theory? And what makes it move in a circle? If you throw a rock through the air, it doesn't move in a circle. If you trace a line on the earth over the path it would take, the line would be perfectly straight. I am not aware of any object that moves in the air over the earth's surface in such a way that, if you were to trace its path on the ground, the path would be circular. The closest thing would be a boomerang, I guess, but even those things go in somewhat of a curve but definitely not a circle.

    And if there is no known case of any other object moving in such a manner, how do we know such movement is even physically possible?

    God made it. We don't understand it, but we don't understand LIFE either, and many other things which scientists REFUSE to admit, or PRETEND they understand, but really don't.

    All glory be to God. He created the earth and the heavens, and the powers of heaven. He made it like a clock. 

    Who hast founded the earth upon its own bases: it shall not be moved for ever and ever.

    [Psalms 103:5]
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #43 on: July 15, 2023, 08:05:29 PM »
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    • The Book of Enoch explains that various types of angels are in charge of the sun, moon, stars, weather etc.  Especially the weather.  
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #44 on: July 15, 2023, 10:50:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on July 15, 2023, 06:09:53 PM


    But there is no otherwise observable example of the type of movement that flat earthers posit is how the sun and moon move around the earth. This is another major problem with flat earth theory.


    Actually there is.  It's the star trails.  They rotate above with Polaris in the center.


    Observation of these star trails can only be explained on a Flat Earth.



    4min

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/67YAk9MF6yvv/
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