Author Topic: Flat Earth quotes  (Read 369 times)

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Offline Fluidicpuppet

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Flat Earth quotes
« on: April 09, 2020, 09:36:51 AM »
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  • I am completely convinced of a stationary earth and Geocentrism, and open to but not really convinced of flat earth yet. What are some Saints, and quotes from them, showing they believed in a flat earth, and ideally why.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #1 on: April 10, 2020, 02:35:12 PM »
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  • I am completely convinced of a stationary earth and Geocentrism, and open to but not really convinced of flat earth yet. What are some Saints, and quotes from them, showing they believed in a flat earth, and ideally why.

    ‘It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters - Leukippos and Demokritos for example - by the time of Eratosthenes (3c. BC), followed by Crates (2c. BC), Strabo (3c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans. Nor did this situation change with the advent of Christianity. A few at least two and at most five early Christian fathers denied the spherically of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps. 104:2-3 as geographical rather than metaphorical statements. On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. The point is that no educated person believed otherwise.’ --- Jeffrey Russell: summary of Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians (1997)

    “All educated persons of Columbus’ day, very much including the Roman Catholic prelates, knew the Earth was round. The Venerable Bede (673-735AD) taught that the world was round, as did Bishop Virgilius of Salzburg (700-784AD), Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), and Thomas Aquinas (1224-74). All four ended up saints. Sphere was the title of the most popular medieval textbook on astronomy, written by the English scholastic John of Sacrobosco (1195-1256). It informed that not only the Earth but all heavenly bodies are spherical.’ --- Rodney Stark: Catholicism and Science, Stark, 9/2004.


    Offline Fluidicpuppet

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #2 on: April 15, 2020, 11:32:39 AM »
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  • ‘It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters - Leukippos and Demokritos for example - by the time of Eratosthenes (3c. BC), followed by Crates (2c. BC), Strabo (3c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans. Nor did this situation change with the advent of Christianity. A few at least two and at most five early Christian fathers denied the spherically of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps. 104:2-3 as geographical rather than metaphorical statements. On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. The point is that no educated person believed otherwise.’ --- Jeffrey Russell: summary of Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians (1997)

    “All educated persons of Columbus’ day, very much including the Roman Catholic prelates, knew the Earth was round. The Venerable Bede (673-735AD) taught that the world was round, as did Bishop Virgilius of Salzburg (700-784AD), Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), and Thomas Aquinas (1224-74). All four ended up saints. Sphere was the title of the most popular medieval textbook on astronomy, written by the English scholastic John of Sacrobosco (1195-1256). It informed that not only the Earth but all heavenly bodies are spherical.’ --- Rodney Stark: Catholicism and Science, Stark, 9/2004.
    This is what I had heard I was just looking to see if flat earth people could prove it wrong, it appears not.

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 02:23:43 AM »
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  • There really is no question that The Bible does.  

    " The Biblical cosmology is never explicitly stated, so it must be pieced together from scattered passages. The Bible is a composite work, so there is no a priori reason why the cosmology assumed by its various writers should be relatively consistent, but it is. The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book."

    "In my view, all arguments to prove the Bible teaches a spherical earth are weak if not wrong- headed. On the other hand, the flat-earth cosmology previously described is historically consistent and requires none of the special pleading apparently necessary to harmonize the Bible with sphericity."

    taken from, "The Flat Earth Bible," by Robert Schadewald 
    https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 08:32:03 AM »
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  • There really is no question that The Bible does.  

    " The Biblical cosmology is never explicitly stated, so it must be pieced together from scattered passages. The Bible is a composite work, so there is no a priori reason why the cosmology assumed by its various writers should be relatively consistent, but it is. The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book."

    "In my view, all arguments to prove the Bible teaches a spherical earth are weak if not wrong- headed. On the other hand, the flat-earth cosmology previously described is historically consistent and requires none of the special pleading apparently necessary to harmonize the Bible with sphericity."

    taken from, "The Flat Earth Bible," by Robert Schadewald
    https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
    You are citing an author with an agenda that makes him untrustworthy.  He was writing to disprove the authority of Scripture:
     
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    Some readers have misinterpreted this document, supposing that Bob Schadewald is defending the idea that the earth is flat. That was not his intent. Some fundamentalist Christians are uncomfortable with the many passages in the Old Testament that seem to support the flat earth model, clearly contradicting abundant scientific evidence that the earth is a round and spinning ball. See: Is the earth a round, spinning ball. So they rationalize and re-interpret these passages to defend their faith that their Bible is without error. Bob, in this essay, tries to show that they can't get away with this cheap trick, for the writers of the Bible really did believe the earth to be flat. 
    As is clear in this excerpt, and even more so in the article itself, he is talking about fundamentalist Protestants.  People who interpret Scripture in isolation from Catholic tradition very well might conclude that the earth is flat.  However, this is not an approach that Catholics ought to be taking.


    Offline An even 7

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #5 on: May 12, 2020, 03:54:32 PM »
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  • I am completely convinced of a stationary earth and Geocentrism, and open to but not really convinced of flat earth yet. What are some Saints, and quotes from them, showing they believed in a flat earth, and ideally why.
    Here is a good quote as to how Catholics should look at this topic, the bold parts especially:


    Quote
    Basil, Hexaemeron: “Those who have written about the nature of the universe have discussed at length the shape of the earth. If it be spherical or cylindrical, if it resemble a disc and is equally rounded in all parts, or if it has the forth of a winnowing basket and is hollow in the middle; all these conjectures have been suggested by cosmographers, each one upsetting that of his predecessor. It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circumference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself whilst the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.”
    An Even7

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #6 on: May 24, 2020, 08:45:40 PM »
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  • Here is a good quote as to how Catholics should look at this topic, the bold parts especially:
    Obviously, Basil's point is being missed here, since the shape of the earth does matter.  Just not in the context in which he's speaking.  We can be sure that at least one of the popular models is false. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #7 on: May 25, 2020, 07:46:02 AM »
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  • Obviously, Basil's point is being missed here, since the shape of the earth does matter.  Just not in the context in which he's speaking.  We can be sure that at least one of the popular models is false.

    There is no reason that people can't discuss it as a matter of science.  But it is common for flat earth proponents on this forum (and presumably elsewhere) to claim that it is spiritually superior to believe in flat earth.  St. Basil's teaching makes that position untenable.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #8 on: May 25, 2020, 10:11:47 AM »
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  • Flat earth can and should be discussed in light of earlier Christians teachings and beliefs in order to get to the truth of the matter.  Dismissing the possibility of a flat earth by making heliocentrism and the globe earth a forgone conclusion is neither scientific nor spiritual.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #9 on: May 25, 2020, 11:36:56 AM »
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  • Flat earth can and should be discussed in light of earlier Christians teachings and beliefs in order to get to the truth of the matter.  Dismissing the possibility of a flat earth by making heliocentrism and the globe earth a forgone conclusion is neither scientific nor spiritual.  
    Both St. Basil and St. Augustine taught that shape of the earth has no spiritual significance and that Scripture is silent on the subject.  This belief has persisted throughout the history of the Church and is repeated in magisterial documents. Starting with St. Bede around 700 AD the shape of the earth was unambiguously treated as a matter of science.  The science accepted by Catholics from this point on was globe earth.  (The line between science and religion was more complicated with geocentrism, but heliocentrism became acceptable in the 1700s.)

    A discussion of earlier Christian teaching and beliefs supports the position of Sts. Basil and Augustine.  The shape of the earth is not part of the faith and does not matter to the faith. If you want to discuss the science with no forgone conclusion, go ahead.  You are free to believe flat earth as far as the Church cares, but you can't claim it is a Catholic belief or teaching.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #10 on: May 25, 2020, 12:58:14 PM »
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  • The significance of discovering the truth should include writings of all the Fathers and saints because there are contexts like Basil's statement that do not reflect the questions involved. Can we dismiss everything based on one statement? Also, St. Augustine leaned heavier toward flat earth than the globe, as well as other Fathers who describe a flat geocentric earth.  It is definitely true that science is an important consideration because people ignore the subtleties of the discussion:  That a firmament dome is inconsistent with a globe and a millions of miles away sun. Dismissing clues is common among those who've made up their mind to accept the heliocentric model but then, that won't necessarily reflect the truth.     


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #11 on: May 25, 2020, 02:48:04 PM »
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  • The significance of discovering the truth should include writings of all the Fathers and saints because there are contexts like Basil's statement that do not reflect the questions involved. Can we dismiss everything based on one statement? Also, St. Augustine leaned heavier toward flat earth than the globe, as well as other Fathers who describe a flat geocentric earth.  It is definitely true that science is an important consideration because people ignore the subtleties of the discussion:  That a firmament dome is inconsistent with a globe and a millions of miles away sun. Dismissing clues is common among those who've made up their mind to accept the heliocentric model but then, that won't necessarily reflect the truth.    
    The majority of scholars consider St. Augustine to have believed in globe earth and that is my own impression from reading various passages.  There is one major Augustinian scholar who claims that he believed in flat earth.  The reason it is debatable is that Augustine did not make any direct statements on the issue.  Because he did not think it had any spiritual significance.

    There are, at most, five Fathers who wrote about the earth being flat.  Some of these statements are ambiguous.  There are perhaps two of them that are clear.  The idea that there is support for flat earth among the Fathers is an exaggeration, originally promoted by anti-Catholics to discredit us.  

    St. John of Damascus wrote a summary of the teaching of the Fathers which, coming from a Doctor of the Church, is a highly credible source.  He said that some Fathers believed the earth to be flat, some believed it was a globe, but that it is a matter of no significance.

    Personally, I don't care  much about the shape of the earth either.  My interest in this subject is that I do not want to see Church teaching misrepresented.  I don't care if you think the earth is flat.  Just don't say that this is a Catholic teaching or that it was the consensus of the Church Fathers.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #12 on: May 25, 2020, 04:23:02 PM »
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  • The majority of scholars consider St. Augustine to have believed in globe earth and that is my own impression from reading various passages.  There is one major Augustinian scholar who claims that he believed in flat earth.  The reason it is debatable is that Augustine did not make any direct statements on the issue.  Because he did not think it had any spiritual significance.

    There are, at most, five Fathers who wrote about the earth being flat.  Some of these statements are ambiguous.  There are perhaps two of them that are clear.  The idea that there is support for flat earth among the Fathers is an exaggeration, originally promoted by anti-Catholics to discredit us.  

    St. John of Damascus wrote a summary of the teaching of the Fathers which, coming from a Doctor of the Church, is a highly credible source.  He said that some Fathers believed the earth to be flat, some believed it was a globe, but that it is a matter of no significance.

    Personally, I don't care  much about the shape of the earth either.  My interest in this subject is that I do not want to see Church teaching misrepresented.  I don't care if you think the earth is flat.  Just don't say that this is a Catholic teaching or that it was the consensus of the Church Fathers.
    I'm interested in hearing about the majority of scholars that consider St. Augustine believed in the globe earth philosophy/science. Who are they?  Who are the 5 Fathers who wrote about the flat earth?  What anti-Catholics are using Fathers to discredit us?  
    I agree, I don't want the Church teaching misrepresented!

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #13 on: May 25, 2020, 05:07:33 PM »
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  • I'm interested in hearing about the majority of scholars that consider St. Augustine believed in the globe earth philosophy/science. Who are they?  Who are the 5 Fathers who wrote about the flat earth?  What anti-Catholics are using Fathers to discredit us?  
    I agree, I don't want the Church teaching misrepresented!
    I've written lots in this subforum already.  Please do a search through my old posts.  I don't really have time to redo it all.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Flat Earth quotes
    « Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 02:18:08 PM »
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  • With little or unimpressive contrary information, along with weak non responses, I'm becoming convinced of a flat geocentric earth.  


     

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