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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 19914 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2022, 08:48:57 AM »
I'm not sure that St. Augustine would shy away from something just because heretics mocked the Church for it.  Heretics never stop mocking the Church for one reason or another.

In the passage cited earlier, St. Augustine entertained the notion that it's not impossible for angels to have some kind of aetherial body, but he seemed to be hung up on how these angels could have fallen or succuмbed to lust when they had not been afflicted with Original Sin .. .and that was the same issue I mentioned I would be puzzled by.  But perhaps there are more things in God's creation that have been "dreamt of in our philosophy".

But, if I recall from Enoch (and I'll go back to check), it sounded like their fall was related to some deliberate act of will first, and then presumably after they had fallen, they too would have been susceptible to lust.

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2022, 08:49:30 AM »
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Devils can use "appearances only" bodies, but those bodies don't actually function.  The biggest problem in my mind is, if fallen angels could procreate, then the antichrist would be the devil incarnate.  But the antichrist will not be Satan incarnated, he will only "perfectly possessed".  If Satan can't do it, why would his minion be able to?
My argument is pre-Flood and post-Flood rules are different.  After the flood, God changed how the world and men operated.  Why wouldn't changes also apply to angels/demons?


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2022, 08:52:27 AM »
That objection above, I don't see offhand who posted it, again presumes that God only made the pure-spirit types of angels.  My hypothesis is that He created a lower-tier of angel that were also partly-corporeal, not with bodies made from the earth, as with Adam, but with these aetherial bodies ... with properties similar to what people say our risen bodies will be like.  These would be the ones said to be down by the "first firmament" and who were in charge of governing matter in all its forms.

It's not clear to me whether they HAD bodies to begin with (or something equivalent to bodies) or they somehow ASSUMED bodies (by manipulating matter, as was in fact their function, per the one Patristic quote).  So these angels seemed to have the ability to interact directly with matter, as that was in fact their chief function.

But these "assumed" bodies would seem to have the lower sensible faculties ... otherwise, they could not experience lust through them.

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2022, 08:56:26 AM »
Also, Enoch describes in very, very minute details how the angels move the sun, moon and stars and also clouds, storms, wind, etc.  So, it would make sense for such angels to have some (limited) corporeal nature, since their job is to deal with tangible things.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2022, 08:59:47 AM »
Also, Enoch describes in very, very minute details how the angels move the sun, moon and stars and also clouds, storms, wind, etc.  So, it would make sense for such angels to have some (limited) corporeal nature, since their job is to deal with tangible things.

Right, and it's there in your post from Athenagoras (these are the ones that fell):
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this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets)

So he says he has the witness of prophets.  Could he have in fact been alluding to the Book of Enoch here?