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Author Topic: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong  (Read 32854 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2022, 09:40:53 PM »
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  • Mark, since you have no interest in FE, then how can you adequately defend Sungenis on the issue?  You can’t.  If you don’t care to understand the details of the FE debate, then how can you say he’s not being biased?  You can’t.  

    Assuming he’s a good-willed indult catholic, he’s still wrong for being indult.  He can also be good-willed and wrong about FE. 

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #61 on: August 14, 2022, 10:22:58 PM »
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  •   He can also be good-willed and wrong about FE.
    Just as easily as you and a lot of others can be good willed and wrong about FE.  The fact that pro FE can feed upon each other to their hearts' content in this re-enforcing (bias confirming?) echo chamber doesn't prove them right even if it may make them feel or even believe they are right.

    Why not operate in a manly way and in good faith by communicating directly with Dr. Sungenis?  I've known him for a long time.  I promise he won't bite you.



    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #62 on: August 14, 2022, 10:29:20 PM »
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  • Why not operate in a manly way and in good faith by communicating directly with Dr. Sungenis?  I've known him for a long time.  I promise he won't bite you.
    Some of you are being completely irrational here. You're letting your esteem and human respect for Dr. Sugenis derail a perfectly legitimate thread critiquing his book as if the original intent was to personally attack him just because the question was raised about there being confirmation bias in his book.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #63 on: August 14, 2022, 11:16:38 PM »
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  • Some of you are being completely irrational here. You're letting your esteem and human respect for Dr. Sugenis derail a perfectly legitimate thread critiquing his book as if the original intent was to personally attack him just because the question was raised about there being confirmation bias in his book.

    We called you out on your manner of critique (and by now your apparent unwillingness to communicate in good faith with Dr. Sungneis) and you don't like it.  OK, whatever.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #64 on: August 15, 2022, 12:40:07 AM »
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  • Some of you are being completely irrational here. You're letting your esteem and human respect for Dr. Sugenis derail a perfectly legitimate thread critiquing his book as if the original intent was to personally attack him just because the question was raised about there being confirmation bias in his book.

    There is NOTHING—NOTHING WHATSOEVER "legitimate" about calling a good and honest man "intellectually dishonest."

    Your (plural) objective sin of calumnious character assassination is not remitted by insisting I have "human respect" for Bob or by proclaiming your "rationality." If you were as rational as you imagine, I wouldn't have to repeatedly state that the calumny, not the FE evidence, is at issue.

    You may be right and Bob may be wrong about FE, but you are "CLEARLY" (to borrow Lad's self-adulation) wrong in your calumny against him. You might also consider the possibility that you are wrong about both FE and your calumny. You do know that you just might be wrong, don't you? Do you (plural) have the "intellectual honesty" to admit that possibility?

    Bottom lines:
    Self-proclaimed "rationality" and blame shifting to me do not remit your (plural) objective sin of calumny.
    The charge of "intellectual dishonesty" should be explicitly retracted (not merely implicitly retracted with some bullshit re-definition that is not in common use anywhere).
    Bob's critics should have the Catholic decency to address their objections to Bob.


    Another bottom line:
    If it is sinful or an occasion of sin for a child to roll around ground fighting with an opposite-sex trainee, it is at least equally sinful or an occasion of sin  for a child to roll around ground fighting with anyone, whether student or instructor, of any sex because there is no shortage of perverts in any age group and in any vocation.

    If anyone has any more bones to pick with me, PM me. In the mean time, I'm going to puke.



    We called you out on your manner of critique (and by now your apparent unwillingness to communicate in good faith with Dr. Sungneis) and you don't like it.  OK, whatever.
    Succinct and accurate.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #65 on: August 15, 2022, 04:12:49 AM »
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  • There is NOTHING—NOTHING WHATSOEVER "legitimate" about calling a good and honest man "intellectually dishonest."

    Your (plural) objective sin of calumnious character assassination is not remitted by insisting I have "human respect" for Bob or by proclaiming your "rationality." If you were as rational as you imagine, I wouldn't have to repeatedly state that the calumny, not the FE evidence, is at issue.

    You may be right and Bob may be wrong about FE, but you are "CLEARLY" (to borrow Lad's self-adulation) wrong in your calumny against him. You might also consider the possibility that you are wrong about both FE and your calumny. You do know that you just might be wrong, don't you? Do you (plural) have the "intellectual honesty" to admit that possibility?

    Bottom lines:
    Self-proclaimed "rationality" and blame shifting to me do not remit your (plural) objective sin of calumny.
    The charge of "intellectual dishonesty" should be explicitly retracted (not merely implicitly retracted with some bullshit re-definition that is not in common use anywhere).
    Bob's critics should have the Catholic decency to address their objections to Bob.


    Another bottom line:
    If it is sinful or an occasion of sin for a child to roll around ground fighting with an opposite-sex trainee, it is at least equally sinful or an occasion of sin  for a child to roll around ground fighting with anyone, whether student or instructor, of any sex because there is no shortage of perverts in any age group and in any vocation.

    If anyone has any more bones to pick with me, PM me. In the mean time, I'm going to puke.
    Quote
    Calumny: (the act of making) a statement about someone that is not true and is intended to damage the reputation of that person

    I am not attacking Dr. Sugenis by speculating whether his misapplication (dict: the act or process of using something badly, wrongly, or in a way that was not intended) of the Fathers in support of his argument is either wilfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest is not an attack on his character or an attempt to calumniate him. But the misapplication is there and you used it as an opportunity to jump in and cause scandal.

    He knows the subject he wrote an 800 PAGE BOOK against; and he knows which Fathers he is misquoting to support his thesis. It is not as though he blindly picked the quotes and they just happen to be out of context.

    So either:
    A. he's ignorant of what the wider context is and doesn't look at it;
    or B. he knows the context and used the quote anyway.
    That is the problem here.

    You raising a big scandal does nothing to change that just because you have an esteem for him. You're right in that I don't personally know the man. So what? I have to gage him by the words that he says (or writes). And what he has written has shown not only that he is wrong, but that he's misquoted the Fathers on this subject.

    Edit: And you also can't claim I'm somehow intent on calumniating him with the intent to damage his reputation when I've bought 5 of his books (including this one) and have encouraged others to buy Geocentrism 101 numerous times.

    The man set out to write a book against a certain position, and has clearly misquoted Fathers in favor of his argument. He is liable to criticism for that. No amount of human respect and scandal-raising can cover up that problem.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #66 on: August 15, 2022, 08:54:38 AM »
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  • I am not attacking Dr. Sugenis by speculating whether his misapplication (dict: the act or process of using something badly, wrongly, or in a way that was not intended) of the Fathers in support of his argument is either wilfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest is not an attack on his character or an attempt to calumniate him. But the misapplication is there and you used it as an opportunity to jump in and cause scandal.

    He knows the subject he wrote an 800 PAGE BOOK against; and he knows which Fathers he is misquoting to support his thesis. It is not as though he blindly picked the quotes and they just happen to be out of context.

    So either:
    A. he's ignorant of what the wider context is and doesn't look at it;
    or B. he knows the context and used the quote anyway.
    That is the problem here.

    You raising a big scandal does nothing to change that just because you have an esteem for him. You're right in that I don't personally know the man. So what? I have to gage him by the words that he says (or writes). And what he has written has shown not only that he is wrong, but that he's misquoted the Fathers on this subject.

    Edit: And you also can't claim I'm somehow intent on calumniating him with the intent to damage his reputation when I've bought 5 of his books (including this one) and have encouraged others to buy Geocentrism 101 numerous times.

    The man set out to write a book against a certain position, and has clearly misquoted Fathers in favor of his argument. He is liable to criticism for that. No amount of human respect and scandal-raising can cover up that problem.

    You claim that you've bought his  -- in your words "800 PAGE BOOK."  Ha, the only problem is it's not 800 pages.  It's actually 736 pages.  How in your flat earth world can you make such a blatantly erroneous statement as this and then expect others to respect your supposedly careful critique of the book's actual contents?!

    Whether you pro FE folks intend it or not and or admit it or not you give the scandalous appearance of making FE a de facto DOGMA of the Catholic Church.  Only problem is FE is NOT a dogma of the Church and you are absolutely wrong to make it appear as if it is.

    Some of us are still waiting for any of you pro-FE outspoken keyboard commandos to communicate directly with Dr. Sungenis.  Again, I promise you he doesn't bite.  But, even if he did -- what's the big deal?

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #67 on: August 15, 2022, 09:49:05 AM »
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  • I am not attacking Dr. Sugenis by speculating whether his misapplication (dict: the act or process of using something badly, wrongly, or in a way that was not intended) of the Fathers in support of his argument is either wilfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest is not an attack on his character or an attempt to calumniate him. But the misapplication is there and you used it as an opportunity to jump in and cause scandal.

    He knows the subject he wrote an 800 PAGE BOOK against; and he knows which Fathers he is misquoting to support his thesis. It is not as though he blindly picked the quotes and they just happen to be out of context.

    So either:
    A. he's ignorant of what the wider context is and doesn't look at it;
    or B. he knows the context and used the quote anyway.
    That is the problem here.

    You raising a big scandal does nothing to change that just because you have an esteem for him. You're right in that I don't personally know the man. So what? I have to gage him by the words that he says (or writes). And what he has written has shown not only that he is wrong, but that he's misquoted the Fathers on this subject.

    Edit: And you also can't claim I'm somehow intent on calumniating him with the intent to damage his reputation when I've bought 5 of his books (including this one) and have encouraged others to buy Geocentrism 101 numerous times.

    The man set out to write a book against a certain position, and has clearly misquoted Fathers in favor of his argument. He is liable to criticism for that. No amount of human respect and scandal-raising can cover up that problem.
    The definition that you supplied

    Quote
    Calumny: (the act of making) a statement about someone that is not true and is intended to damage the reputation of that person


    Here's a Catholic definition:

    Quote
    Calumny
    (Latin calvor, to use artifice, to deceive)

    Etymologically any form of ruse or fraud employed to deceive another, particularly in judicial proceedings. In its more commonly accepted signification it means the unjust damaging of the good name of another by imputing to him a crime or fault of which he is not guilty. The sin thus committed is in a general sense mortal, just as is detraction. It is hardly necessary, however, to observe that as in other breaches of the law the sin may be venial, either because of the trivial character of the subject-matter involved or because of insufficient deliberation in the making of the accusation. Objectively, a calumny is a mortal sin when it is calculated to do serious harm to the person so traduced. Just as in the instance of wrongful damage to person or estate, so the calumniator is bound to adequate reparation for the injury perpetrated by the blackening of another's good name. He is obliged (1) to retract his false statements, and that even though his own reputation may necessarily as a consequence suffer. (2) He must also make good whatever other losses have been sustained by the innocent party as a result of his libellous utterances, provided these same have been in some measure (in confuso) foreseen by him. In canon law the phrase juramentum calumniae is employed to indicate the oath taken by the parties to a litigation, by which they averred that the action was brought and the defence offered in good faith. —Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03190c.htm


    Unjust? —Yes, unjust. You (plural) blasted "intellectually dishonest" still having never discussed with Bob the weaknesses you think are in his writing.

    Damage Bob's good name? —Yes, Bob has a good name among practicing Catholics and "intellectual dishonesty" damages that good name, especially in a forum read by far more Catholics than actually post here.

    Of which he is not guilty? — Yes, Bob is not dishonest in any way. You have proven no dishonesty. You have amply proven that you disagree with him. It is the calumny, not the disagreement, that I called out.


    Your intent? —You tell me. I am not Meg. I never imputed any "intent" to you (plural). Intent does not remit the sin. Intent only affects the level of sin and I made no such accusation of the level of sin, only that the charge of "intellectual dishonesty" against Bob Sungenis meets the objective Catholic criteria of calumny. If anything, I'd give you (plural) the benefit of the doubt, that you didn't intend damage, maybe got carried away in your righteous zeal. But in no way does your intent make the calumny objectively sinless.

    Lad (your "pen pal"?) accused Sungenis of "intellectual dishonesty," then when called on it, instead of doing a simple thing ("Yeah, that was over-the-top. Bob is not dishonest"), invented a re-definition of "intellectual dishonesty" and re-asserted his calumny repeatedly.

    Then, you (DL) offered a variety of risible justifications for the calumny, as you still do in your latest post. I believe that objectively descends to "accomplice."

    So, you (plural) accused Bob of intellectual dishonesty and defended the calumny, but I am the one "causing scandal" and "irrational"???

    The Catholic solution is quite simple:
    1. retract the calumny and
    2. contact Bob with your objections.


    You need concede nothing in your FE position, so is there something other than pride that stops you calumniators from doing the Catholic solution? (<<< note the question mark. That's not an accusation; it's a question.)


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #68 on: August 15, 2022, 10:00:57 AM »
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  • You claim that you've bought his  -- in your words "800 PAGE BOOK."  Ha, the only problem is it's not 800 pages.  It's actually 736 pages.  How in your flat earth world can you make such a blatantly erroneous statement as this and then expect others to respect your supposedly careful critique of the book's actual contents?!
    Oh boy, you got me there. How dare I not provide the precise page count!

    You are both being utterly ridiculous.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #69 on: August 15, 2022, 10:03:35 AM »
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  • so is there something other than pride that stops you calumniators from doing the Catholic solution? (<<< note the question mark. That's not an accusation; it's a question.)
    I have no bone to pick except this one, as it seems to happen far too often on this website.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #70 on: August 15, 2022, 10:19:21 AM »
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  • that he's either wilfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
    Fine. I retract the above statement. It was poorly-worded and paints a different picture of Dr. Sugenis than was originally intended.

    Does it excuse his misapplication of the Fathers or his confirmation bias? No. No it does not.
    Does it invalidate any critiques that have been laid out regarding his book? No.
    Does it excuse the behavior of either Mark or Charity? Nope.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #71 on: August 15, 2022, 10:28:03 AM »
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  • Fine. I retract the above statement. It was poorly-worded and paints a different picture of Dr. Sugenis than was originally intended.

    Does it excuse his misapplication of the Fathers or his confirmation bias? No. No it does not.
    Does it invalidate any critiques that have been laid out regarding his book? No.
    Does it excuse the behavior of either Mark or Charity? Nope.
    Well done. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #72 on: August 15, 2022, 10:31:05 AM »
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  • Fine. I retract the above statement. It was poorly-worded and paints a different picture of Dr. Sugenis than was originally intended.

    Does it excuse his misapplication of the Fathers or his confirmation bias? No. No it does not.
    Does it invalidate any critiques that have been laid out regarding his book? No.
    Does it excuse the behavior of either Mark or Charity? Nope.

    Good that you retracted the statement.

    But you are correct to ask the other three questions above. The buddies/fans of Sungenis aren't going to care about those questions though.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #73 on: August 15, 2022, 10:45:16 AM »
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  • I could be wrong, but I don't think that this is the first time that Sungenis has been called 'intellectually dishonest'. And no, I'm not calling him that. I think he truly believes in the globe earth, and will defend it no matter what.

    He's been criticized strongly on the forum before now, a few years ago when FE was a main topic of the forum. Those who are new the subject of FE probably don't remember that.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #74 on: August 15, 2022, 10:49:16 AM »
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  • Good that you retracted the statement.

    But you are correct to ask the other three questions above. The buddies/fans of Sungenis aren't going to care about those questions though.

    Yes, I agree. Perhaps you missed that my compliment "Well done" included DL's entire post.

    Maybe you also missed that days ago I stipulated that I have "ZERO" interest in FE, so, correct, I don't care about FE. Do you care about 助詞 and 
    อนุภาค? Do you care about El Niño's effect on the albacore run off San Diego? Do you care if CFE223 is a good powder to load subsonic .300BLK? Do you care at what temperature Black Krim stop setting fruit?