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Author Topic: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong  (Read 31710 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2022, 12:19:09 PM »
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  • I'm thinking more and more that those who believed that the world (no, not the surface of the earth, but the world, INCLUDING the firmament) was shaped like a cone were the same ones who argued that "stretched out like a tent" precludes the firmament being semi-spherical or spherical (curved).  I'm guessing that they had this type of an image in mind (picture of Bedouin tent below).



    I have no idea whether they believed there was a hemisphere at the bottom (look like a snow cone) or whether it was just flat across the bottom.  But it's clear that they would not imagine people living on the SURFACE of this cone, but rather underneath it on the flat bottom surface, exactly as those who believed it to be spherical or hemispherical did.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #136 on: August 16, 2022, 12:24:30 PM »
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  • Finally, Dr. Sungenis opened by citing St. Ambrose (debating against some adversary that I couldn't determine from the short citation itself), adversaries who we arguing that if the earth were still and the heavens moving around it, that the waters would flow down off the top of the sphere.  They CLEARLY could not be talking about the LAND surface on which people dwell, since that would mean the water would directly contact the globe earth and that they would be submerged in water.  It's absolutely clear that he was talking about the spherical FIRMAMENT that the waters would flow off of (or not, based on his argument).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #137 on: August 16, 2022, 12:43:53 PM »
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  • Perhaps a cone like this? Like a snocone? :laugh1:


    download-4
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #138 on: August 16, 2022, 02:49:47 PM »
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  • That's a cool wedge picture there.  It would be interesting to analyze all the stuff in the different layers.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #139 on: August 16, 2022, 04:48:17 PM »
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  • Perhaps a cone like this? Like a snocone? :laugh1:



    Reminds me of Dante's 9 circles of hell. 
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #140 on: August 16, 2022, 04:53:13 PM »
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  • Reminds me of Dante's 9 circles of hell.
    lol that's because it is :cowboy:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #141 on: August 16, 2022, 04:56:36 PM »
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  • I ran across this and it's fascinating.  I recommend reading it.  I've only skimmed it, but it's the best treatment of the subject that I've come across.

    He comes up with an alternative to the normal FE paradigm of the sun and moon rotating parallel above the surface of the earth, based on the Book of Enoch, and it makes sense if you think of the firmament or dome rising up in the middle (whether a sphere or a tent shape).

    https://www.hanotzrim.com/resources/Hebrew_Cosmology/Hebrew%20Cosmology.pdf

    He cites many non-Biblical sources to back up what Sacred Scripture teaches.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #142 on: August 16, 2022, 05:42:13 PM »
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  • I ran across this and it's fascinating.  I recommend reading it.  I've only skimmed it, but it's the best treatment of the subject that I've come across.

    He comes up with an alternative to the normal FE paradigm of the sun and moon rotating parallel above the surface of the earth, based on the Book of Enoch, and it makes sense if you think of the firmament or dome rising up in the middle (whether a sphere or a tent shape).

    https://www.hanotzrim.com/resources/Hebrew_Cosmology/Hebrew%20Cosmology.pdf

    He cites many non-Biblical sources to back up what Sacred Scripture teaches.
    You ran across this? Out in the open where people could find it? Like, online? I guess Sungenis' internet was down at the time. 

    Gets into flat earth early: "William Blake, aware of the alleged science advancements in his day, observed: The clouds bow to meet the flat earth and the sea in such an ordered space […] As to that false appearance which appears to the reasoner [Newton, Bacon, Locke et al.], as of a globe rolling through voidness, it is a delusion." 24

    So much for the illusion that nobody believed the earth was flat. 

    Addition to the above, by Enoch.

    I saw the ends of the earth whereon the [vault of] heaven rests. (1 En 33:2)


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #143 on: August 16, 2022, 05:57:01 PM »
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  • Cosmas of Indiocopleustes and the Church Fathers' viewed the earth as the model for the Jєωιѕн Tabernacle (dwelling place) which coincides, not surprisingly, to the tabernacle in Catholic churches where the Our Lord dwells to this day.  

    The author explains:

    Since the heavenly abode of God finds its counterpart in the earthly tabernacle or mishkan (משכן’ | dwelling’), it seems obvious that the vault answers to the veil which separated the holy from the most holy place and thus divided the sanctuary. Behind the heavenly veil, that is, above the vault is the Throne of God:41

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #144 on: August 16, 2022, 06:31:49 PM »
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  • I ran across this and it's fascinating.  I recommend reading it.  I've only skimmed it, but it's the best treatment of the subject that I've come across.

    He comes up with an alternative to the normal FE paradigm of the sun and moon rotating parallel above the surface of the earth, based on the Book of Enoch, and it makes sense if you think of the firmament or dome rising up in the middle (whether a sphere or a tent shape).

    https://www.hanotzrim.com/resources/Hebrew_Cosmology/Hebrew%20Cosmology.pdf

    He cites many non-Biblical sources to back up what Sacred Scripture teaches.
    I'm about halfway through it, but, it affirms exactly what I've been envisioning the flat earth to be.

    It's also interesting just how much Enoch corroborates FE findings. I've never seriously delved into the text since it's apocryphal, but I'll have to make a point of doing so.

    Quote
    The exact location is given to us by the fallen cherub who used to guard the throne:

    I will climb to the sky; higher than the stars of Hashem I will set my throne. I will sit in the mount of assembly, on the summit of Zaphon. (Isa 14:13)

    The summit of Zaphon (‘north’) is the crown of the dome; it is located above the North Star aka Polaris, one of the luminaries.
    Very interesting. And it would make sense that Lucifer (the light-bearer) would have fallen from this point of the dome.

    And this footnote is a solid description of what many have been seeing with the cymatic phenomena upon viewing stars.
    Quote
    The firmament acts as a prism. Spinning water droplets scatter the spectral colours into perfect white, but do not produce a rainbow. Yet, ice or water particles can act as a screen if the light is split between the source and the particles. Since sunlight is dispersed by the dome, i.e. by a vaulted arch, the spectrum projected to the droplets forms an arch. Rainbows are ever-present as any lawn sprinkler will reveal; a secondary rainbow is the dome’s reflection of the main bow (as evidenced by its reversed spectrum); halos are caused by the same refractive properties of the vault. “Atmospheric refraction is technically not possible without a solid extension above the earth.” M. Eugenio, Dossier 111 (Turin, 2018), 293.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #145 on: August 16, 2022, 06:40:48 PM »
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  • The author is obviously not Catholic and has conveniently left out the Church's role in shutting down heliocentrism in the 1600's. Doubtful that the infiltration to destroy the Church started in Constantine's time, that's Protestant gibberish. 'Rome' never attempted to replace the worship of God with the worship of the sun...until recently of course. It's obvious that the enemies of the Church (Jews/Freemasons) desperately needed to infiltrate the Church in order to broadcast their errors. Heliocentrism was a necessary tool for their virtual world.  The same people all but buried vital information about the Church and creation throughout the centuries because it was so intricately tied to Catholic liturgy, to Christ, and to reality.  Although the author has sourced his information well (mostly), his commentary falls short as he's caught justifying his own heresy by blaming the Church, who was also a victim in this centuries old smear campaign.      

    "From the days of Constantine, Rome has aimed to replace the worship of God with the worship of the sun, and when Holy Writ went public, she started to employ other means than merely corrupting Scripture and killing its readers. To undermine the Bible’s authority, Rome began to change the perception of the masses regarding reality. That way she would nullify its main opponent without having to burn people or Torah scrolls. Heliocentrism was simply a tool of the Counter-Reformation and has been the bedrock of Jesuit ‘education’ ever since. Like the big bang and macro-evolution, it is an ancient pagan belief that was revived by ‘the beast.’"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #146 on: August 16, 2022, 06:55:55 PM »
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  • Sure, he's not a Catholic, but his citations and footnotes are excellent, and his reading of Enoch is interesting.

    While Enoch is not inspired Sacred Scripture, there are quite a few passages in New Testament Sacred Scripture that seems to be alluding to the Book of Enoch, and quite a few Church Fathers felt that it was part of Sacred Scripture.  It seems to contain some very clear prophecies about Our Lord.


    Quote
    The Book of Enoch was viewed as scriptural in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4), as well as by many early Church Leaders, including Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, who wrote around 200 that the Jews had dismissed the Book of Enoch since it includes prophecies about Christ.


    I'm in between on some of these books.  Simply because it wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that it isn't authentic, real, and accurate.  I think there's a temptation to throw anything out that wasn't declared by the Church to be inspired as if it were a fraud.  But it doesn't have to be all or nothing.  I could be authentic ... and yet not inspired.  So, for instance, we have some of the early works like the Epistle of Pope St. Clement of Rome that's very real, has authority, but not inspired.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #147 on: August 16, 2022, 07:00:14 PM »
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  • The author is obviously not Catholic and has conveniently left out the Church's role in shutting down heliocentrism in the 1600's. Doubtful that the infiltration to destroy the Church started in Constantine's time, that's Protestant gibberish. 'Rome' never attempted to replace the worship of God with the worship of the sun...until recently of course. It's obvious that the enemies of the Church (Jєωs/Freemasons) desperately needed to infiltrate the Church in order to broadcast their errors. Heliocentrism was a necessary tool for their virtual world.  The same people all but buried vital information about the Church and creation throughout the centuries because it was so intricately tied to Catholic liturgy, to Christ, and to reality.  Although the author has sourced his information well (mostly), his commentary falls short as he's caught justifying his own heresy by blaming the Church, who was also a victim in this centuries old smear campaign.     

    "From the days of Constantine, Rome has aimed to replace the worship of God with the worship of the sun, and when Holy Writ went public, she started to employ other means than merely corrupting Scripture and killing its readers. To undermine the Bible’s authority, Rome began to change the perception of the masses regarding reality. That way she would nullify its main opponent without having to burn people or Torah scrolls. Heliocentrism was simply a tool of the Counter-Reformation and has been the bedrock of Jesuit ‘education’ ever since. Like the big bang and macro-evolution, it is an ancient pagan belief that was revived by ‘the beast.’"
    Yeah, that was apparent from the outset when he referred to the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, "coming into being" on the first day. I didn't expect Catholic orthodoxy here, I view it the same as I would Edward Hendrie's book on FE; as he also goes into a ridiculous tangent about the "evil" Roman Catholic Church and the Jesuits in the latter quarter of that book. You'll get that when utilizing Protestant sources, but that doesn't necessarily mean their observations are wrong in the case of FE.

    Still, a lot of the connections this author has made are interesting. Specifically the nature of the moon's light, and consequently its phases, as a result of transduction:
    Quote
    Since Genesis defines the moon not as a reflector but as a luminary, we know that she emits her own light. Put another way, the moon illuminates not through reflec-tion but through transduction.58 As commonly held, her position in relation to the sun determines the phases, i.e. the visible area of the moon’s illuminated hemisphere:

    On the first day she is called New Moon because on the day light appears on her. The whole time in which the illumination of the moon progresses, light is transmitted to her, facing the sun, until the fourteenth day when her light is complete; then it amounts to one seventh of the light of the sun. (1 En 78:12, 11; 73:3)

    The moon then wanes over fourteen days until she exhibits zero illumination:59

    In her waning the moon decreases from her light. On the first day she has 14 parts, and on the second day 13 parts… [and on the fourteenth day 1 part]. And all the rest of her light is removed, and her orb emerges, devoid of all light, hidden by the sun. (1 En 78:8, 14)60

    Footnote 58:
    Quote
    The Ethiopic text of 1 Enoch portrays the moon as ‘taking’ from the sun. She acts like a fluorescent bulb which absorbs electromagnetic radiation and re-emits the photons in the form of cold light.
    Footnote 59:
    Quote
    Lunar eclipse is a misnomer: “Since about the 15th century over 50 eclipses have occurred while both sun and moon have been visible above the horizon.” F. Cook, The Terrestrial Plane (London, 1908), 58. When the EM axis between the terrestrial and celestial North Pole alters the conductive potential of the moon, the latter appears orange. It happens on rare occasions when the sun and moon are opposing each other while having the same distance to the equinox.
    This idea of transduction is probably one of the better explanations I've seen for how the moon not only appears as a reflector of the sun's light, but also how it emits its own "cold light" and goes through phases (the absorption of electromagnetic radiation).

    I'm in between on some of these books.  Simply because it wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that it isn't authentic, real, and accurate.  I think there's a temptation to throw anything out that wasn't declared by the Church to be inspired as if it were a fraud.  But it doesn't have to be all or nothing.  I could be authentic ... and yet not inspired.  So, for instance, we have some of the early works like the Epistle of Pope St. Clement of Rome that's very real, has authority, but not inspired.
    I'm in a similar position. Especially since Sacred Scripture references them. As it is not as though it is forbidden to believe in them, it's just that they have no definitive basis for proven legitimacy as inspired works. Obviously, anything that was clearly crafted by heretics would be out of the question (the Gnostic scriptures, specifically), but I don't seem harm in having a personal belief in them, as they are still part of Tradition, provided one isn't elevating them to the level of Sacred Scripture.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #148 on: August 16, 2022, 07:02:31 PM »
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  • Don't be misled by the title.  But they point out how St. Jude in his epistle cited prophecy from Enoch as if it were legitimate and real.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #149 on: August 16, 2022, 08:58:46 PM »
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  • Sure, he's not a Catholic, but his citations and footnotes are excellent, and his reading of Enoch is interesting.

    While Enoch is not inspired Sacred Scripture, there are quite a few passages in New Testament Sacred Scripture that seems to be alluding to the Book of Enoch, and quite a few Church Fathers felt that it was part of Sacred Scripture.  It seems to contain some very clear prophecies about Our Lord.


    No complaints, he was very well sourced.  Just had to say something up front or half of Cathinfo will come out of their chairs to throw a fit. Enoch, also, has plenty of support by the Fathers of the Church, so while his writings are not infallible, he went to an awful lot of trouble to explain the workings of the stars, sun, moon and flat earth just to get dismissed by those who prefer non infallible modern science.