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Author Topic: Challenge for globe earthers  (Read 15211 times)

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Offline Cera

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Challenge for globe earthers
« on: November 09, 2023, 06:27:06 PM »
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  • Please explain this from Holy Scripture.

    And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

     [Genesis 1:7]
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #1 on: November 09, 2023, 10:07:58 PM »
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  • Before I gave it much thought, and realized that the Earth is actually a flat plane, I used to twist this passage to mean a water vapor canopy which only existed before the Flood. 
    But that was just me.

    And when it talked about the windows of heaven being opened to flood the earth, I thought it was figurative, was a bit embarrassed by it, etc.

    But now that I'm a dreaded "Flat Earther" ::) I have no such embarrassment. It all makes sense, and I have an easier time accepting everything in Holy Scripture, especially everything talking about the earth, its four corners, the ends of the earth, ascending into heaven, descending into hell, etc.
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    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #2 on: November 09, 2023, 10:39:26 PM »
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  • Good challenge though.  I'm all for seeing the very beast each side has to offer so maybe someone will take the challenge and come up with something coherent.  Probably not though.

    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #3 on: November 10, 2023, 01:15:43 AM »
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  • Please explain this from Holy Scripture.

    And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

     [Genesis 1:7]
    The air contains moisture. You can see this as fog or clouds. Since the atmosphere is parallel with the curvature of the earth, it looks like a dome or firmament from any spot on the earth because you cannot see the other half of the sphere.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #4 on: November 10, 2023, 05:05:11 AM »
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  • Please explain this from Holy Scripture.

    And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

     [Genesis 1:7]

    God created the atmosphere of AIR for creatures to breath between the waters on Earth and the waters in the sky , the clouds.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #5 on: November 10, 2023, 05:35:47 AM »
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  • God created the atmosphere of AIR for creatures to breath between the waters on Earth and the waters in the sky , the clouds.

    Very sad, cassini.  You are constantly promoting the notion that heliocentrism is heretical because it contradicts the meaning of Sacred Scripture as unanimously interpreted by the Church Fathers.  Well, the Church Fathers were unanimous that the firmament was a physical structure that kept physical waters from inundating the earth, and not a metaphor for the air and "clouds".

    You have to at least try to come up with something along the lines of what Matthew held (which is what I held as well until I came to the realization that the earth is flat), a water canopy, in order to avoid heresy by your own criteria.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #6 on: November 10, 2023, 05:37:41 AM »
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  • The air contains moisture. You can see this as fog or clouds. Since the atmosphere is parallel with the curvature of the earth, it looks like a dome or firmament from any spot on the earth because you cannot see the other half of the sphere.
    God created the atmosphere of AIR for creatures to breath between the waters on Earth and the waters in the sky , the clouds.
    Except the firmament is above the earth, and the waters is above the firmament...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #7 on: November 10, 2023, 05:39:47 AM »
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  • Sure, the air is now a FIRMamentum.  Church Fathers unanimously reject your theory.  At least Sungenis at one point tried to come up with his Planck fabric thing, although at another time he said it was "space".  So is it the air or space?  Sungenis came up with space, rather than your "air", because he realized that the Hebrews and Church Fathers understood the air, i.e. atmosphere, to be BELOW the firmament.  They had a notion of 3 Heavens, the first being the air above us, the sky, etc., the second being the firmament itself, and the third being the Heaven where God dwells that is above air, the firmament, and the waters above the firmament.

    So both your "air" and "space" are epic fails and by the criteria of the Holy Office which condemned heliocentrism as heretical, your theory is heresy.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #8 on: November 10, 2023, 05:41:55 AM »
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  • Except the firmament is above the earth, and the waters is above the firmament...

    Right the firmament is above not only the earth, but also above the air, which was considered the First Heaven.  Firmament itself was considered the Second Heaven, and so was ABOVE the air.  God's abode was called the Third Heaven.  That is why St. Paul spoke of his experience of being taken up to the Third Heaven, i.e. where God dwells.

    Best you could do here if you're a Glober is to appeal to hold a "water canopy" theory or else something like Sungenis' Planck fabric, where space is actually a solid thing even though it doesn't appear to be solid ... not that this Planck fabric has the property of being able to restrain waters, nor does it explain where the waters above said firmament happen to be.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #9 on: November 10, 2023, 06:16:53 AM »
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  • God created the atmosphere of AIR for creatures to breath between the waters on Earth and the waters in the sky , the clouds.

    Again, notes Augustine, someone (Basil in his homilies on the six days of creation, De Gen. ad litt., II, 4.) has interpreted the firmament to mean the air that separates the rain clouds from the condensed water on the surface of the earth. It is firm and supportive inasmuch as it holds up the clouds after the fashion of a cushion.

    Go on then someone, give St Basil a thumbs down.
    That is the trouble debating this subject with flat Earthers.
    No other debate brings out the worst
    How dare you side with St Basil.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #10 on: November 10, 2023, 07:15:34 AM »
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  • Again, notes Augustine, someone (Basil in his homilies on the six days of creation, De Gen. ad litt., II, 4.) has interpreted the firmament to mean the air that separates the rain clouds from the condensed water on the surface of the earth. It is firm and supportive inasmuch as it holds up the clouds after the fashion of a cushion.

    Go on then someone, give St Basil a thumbs down.
    That is the trouble debating this subject with flat Earthers.
    No other debate brings out the worst
    How dare you side with St Basil.


    This is a complete lie, and I'll expose your lie when I have time to go through his lengthy discourse on the matter.  St. Basil holds that the entire universe is filled with water, refuting the claims of those who hold that the waters are metaphorical.  He answers the objection about how the waters would not flow off the firmament if it's spherical in shape (similar to the argument St. Ambrose was addressing ... and rejecting).  He argues that even though the interior of the firmament that we see is spherical, the outside of the firmament might be shaped differently.  In the passage that you deliberately distort here to further you're agenda, he's discussing the role of the firmament in the process of water evaporation while keeping the waters above separate.  He discusses what the firmament is made of, believing that it's some trans-physical substance that cannot be perceived by the senses, but he does not claim that it's simply air.

    Here's just one passage where he's discussing the shape of said firmament:
    Quote
    We are asked how, if the firmament is a spherical body, as it appears to the eye, its convex circuмference can contain the water which flows and circulates in higher regions? What shall we answer? One thing only: because the interior of a body presents a perfect concavity it does not necessarily follow that its exterior surface is spherical and smoothly rounded. Look at the stone vaults of baths, and the structure of buildings of cave form; the dome, which forms the interior, does not prevent the roof from having ordinarily a flat surface.  Let these unfortunate men cease, then, from tormenting us and themselves about the impossibility of our retaining water in the higher regions.

    Nice try assuming the accuracy of your distortion of St. Basil to then claim that anyone who doesn't agree with you is "down-thumbing" St. Basil himself.

    So this is his answer to the objection that if the firmament were spherical in shape, it could not retain the waters above it, holding that it's spherical on the inside (that we see) but possibly not spherical on the outside.  St. Ambrose answers this same objection differently, referring to a rotation of the waters that keep them suspended.

    But I'm sure it's just air that he's discussing the shape of here ... as if air can have a shape at all.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #11 on: November 10, 2023, 08:05:21 AM »
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  • Please explain this from Holy Scripture.

    And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

     [Genesis 1:7]

    Cera asked the above question. It has nothing to do with a flat Earth, it is a simple question.
    We live on the Earth today. We can see the waters of the sea and the clouds.
    Thus the question asked above can be answered by way of the senses.
    It explains where the air that is necessary for life came from,
    Is there any other Scriptural explanation of this creation?

    As for a flat Earth or a global Earth, well the science of geodesy, measuring the shape of the Earth, has been practiced now for over 300 years.

    Giovanni Domenico Cassini, dfefender of geocentrism, was one of the most skilled surveyors of his era, a man the popes in Rome had surveying rivers and lands to prevent flooding. So, as a true empiricist, he decided to measure the curve of the Earth as well as he could for himself in order to determine the true shape of the Earth in order to prove Newton's bulging spinning Earth was not bulge-shaped globe.

      

     the Academy.King Louis XIV of France approved Cassini’s last great expedition. With the aid of his son Jacques Cassini (Cassini II) and others, he measured the arc of meridian (see above) from Paris north to Dunkirk and south to the boundary of Spain, and, in addition, he conducted various associated geodesic and further south astronomical operations that were reported to the Academy. The Northern hemisphere was found to be curved like the top of an egg. 

    In 1735, financed by King Louis XV this time, one group went to Peru under Pierre Bouguer and Charles Marie La Condamine and a year later another group went to Lapland under Maupertuis. Their findings were that the Earth is a globe. Ten years later, after measuring two baselines, one 12.2 and 10.3 kilometres (7.6 and 6.4 miles), La Condamine and his group emerged from the Amazon jungle with their mission accomplished, again confirming the Earth is a globe.

     COORDINATE SYSTEMS USED IN GEODESY
    BASIC DEFINITIONS AND CONCEPTS
    By Tomás Soler  and Larry D. Hothem,  Member, ASCE

    ‘INTRODUCTION: The principal problem of geodesy may be stated as follows (Hirvonen 1960): “Find the space coordinates at any point P at the physical surface S of the Earth when a sufficient number of geodetic operations have been carried out along S.” Therefore, in order to know the position P, the definition of an appropriate frame to which these spatial coordinates refer is of primary importance.  

    For years now I have challenged flat earthers to show how this science can be illiminated as nonsense.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #12 on: November 10, 2023, 08:27:18 AM »
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  • As for a flat Earth or a global Earth, well the science of geodesy, measuring the shape of the Earth, has been practiced now for over 300 years.

    Perhaps you could explain how the "science of geodesy" accounts for the fact that the Alps have been photographed from 700 miles away when they should have been hidden under 85 miles of "curvature", how two-way laser experiments (which rule out refraction) demonstrate that there's no curvature, how there's a photograph of a lighthouse that rises 150 above sea level from about 230+ miles away when it too should be hidden by miles of curvature, and the myriad other experiments which confirm the same thing.  It's interesting how Cassini's "science of geodesy" came to a different conclusion that others' "science of geodesy".  At long distances, geodesy relies on assumptions since those distances cannot be measured directly.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #13 on: November 10, 2023, 08:30:28 AM »
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  • For years now I have challenged flat earthers to show how this science can be illiminated as nonsense.

    There's nothing of substance here, only gratuitous assertion.  For years we have challenged Globe earthers to explain the experiments that conclusively indicate the contrary.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Challenge for globe earthers
    « Reply #14 on: November 10, 2023, 09:24:50 AM »
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  • Lighthouses wouldn't even WORK on Earth if it were a globe/ball.

    Think about it. The drop or curve is exponential with the distance. You wouldn't be able to see the lighthouse more than a few miles away before its light would be utterly hidden and lost due to curvature. But it's a fact that lighthouses can be seen for dozens, sometimes more than a 100, miles away. Impossible on a globe.
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