Author Topic: Challenge for globe earthers (Read 14922 times)

cassini · « **Reply #45 on:** November 17, 2023, 04:53:43 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 10, 2023, 05:35:47 AM

Very sad, cassini. You are constantly promoting the notion that heliocentrism is heretical because it contradicts the meaning of Sacred Scripture as unanimously interpreted by the Church Fathers. Well, the Church Fathers were unanimous that the firmament was a physical structure that kept physical waters from inundating the earth, and not a metaphor for the air and "clouds".

You have to at least try to come up with something along the lines of what Matthew held (which is what I held as well until I came to the realization that the earth is flat), a water canopy, in order to avoid heresy by your own criteria.

St Augustine, a Church Father, in his THE CITY OF GOD (book xvi Chapter IX) writes:

But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite ours, that is on no ground credible. And, indeed, it is not affirmed that this has been learned by historical knowledge, but by scientific conjecture, on the ground that the earth is suspended within the concavity of the sky, and that it has as much room on the one side of it as on the other: hence they say that the part which is beneath must also be inhabited. But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side of the earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled. For Scripture, which proves the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, gives no false information; and it is too absurd to say, that some men might have taken ship and traversed the whole wide ocean, and crossed from this side of the world to the other, and that thus even the inhabitants of that distant region are descended from that one first man. Wherefore let us seek if we can find the city of God that sojourns on earth among those human races who are catalogued as having been divided into seventy-two nations and as many languages. For it continued down to the deluge and the ark, and is proved to have existed still among the sons of Noah by their blessings, and chiefly in the eldest son Shem; for Japheth received this blessing, that he should dwell in the tents of Shem.

It seems from above a global Earth is not a problem for St Augustine. Its people on the other side he has problems with. I thought all the Fathers held to a flat Earth..

Ladislaus · « **Reply #46 on:** November 17, 2023, 06:41:31 AM »

None of your posts address the issue of the firmament, except the false allegation that St. Basil taught that there was no physical firmament.

Tradman · « **Reply #47 on:** November 17, 2023, 08:27:08 AM »

Quote from: cassini on November 17, 2023, 04:53:43 AM

St Augustine, a Church Father, in his THE CITY OF GOD (book xvi Chapter IX) writes:

But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite ours, that is on no ground credible. And, indeed, it is not affirmed that this has been learned by historical knowledge, but by scientific conjecture, on the ground that the earth is suspended within the concavity of the sky, and that it has as much room on the one side of it as on the other: hence they say that the part which is beneath must also be inhabited. But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side of the earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled. For Scripture, which proves the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, gives no false information; and it is too absurd to say, that some men might have taken ship and traversed the whole wide ocean, and crossed from this side of the world to the other, and that thus even the inhabitants of that distant region are descended from that one first man. Wherefore let us seek if we can find the city of God that sojourns on earth among those human races who are catalogued as having been divided into seventy-two nations and as many languages. For it continued down to the deluge and the ark, and is proved to have existed still among the sons of Noah by their blessings, and chiefly in the eldest son Shem; for Japheth received this blessing, that he should dwell in the tents of Shem.

It seems from above a global Earth is not a problem for St Augustine. Its people on the other side he has problems with. I thought all the Fathers held to a flat Earth..

Historian Andrew Dickson White tells us "that for over a thousand years it was held in the Church there were no human beings on the opposite sides of the earth (even if the earth had opposite sides)." You'd really have to prove this false before proceeding or risk contradicting a serious chunk of Catholic teaching.

Pagan Pythagoras introduced the concept of ‘antipodes‘ by being the first to claim that people could live on the opposite side of the world.  Pode is Greek for feet, so Pythagoras coined the term antipodes, meaning feet pointed in a direction that was opposite. “The earth, which is also spherical and inhabited all over, that there are antipodes…”

The great authority of Augustine, and the cogency of his scriptural argument, held the Church firmly against the doctrine of the antipodes... For over a thousand years it was held in the Church, "always, everywhere, and by all," that there could not be human beings on the opposite sides of the earth, even if the earth had opposite sides;

For a thousand years, Christendom wasn't convinced there were antipodes, nor opposite sides. Do you know that anything held for 1000 years is doctrine?

You're saying Pope Zachary, Virgilius, Justinian, St. Augustine, St. Boniface, St. Cyril, St. Clement and many other notable Catholics were wrong in condemning antipodes and spherical earth?

You're saying St. Jerome and Pope Urban were wrong to say Jerusalem is at the center of the earth when they based their information on the book of Ezekiel?

By what authority do you make such claims? Just because you're desperate to rescue the pagan globe? Why? You have no proof earth is a globe, other than what modern pagans tell you. Incredibly intelligent holy and even sainted Catholics have told you earth is not a globe.  Over and over and over.   Yet, you believe the pagans.

cassini · « **Reply #48 on:** November 17, 2023, 10:54:24 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 17, 2023, 06:41:31 AM

None of your posts address the issue of the firmament, except the false allegation that St. Basil taught that there was no physical firmament.

I don't recall saying St Basil taught there is no physical firmament. That is absurd.

Originally I used common sense to interpret the firmament as meaning between the waters of the Earth and the clouds, as we humans have no knowledge of any waters outside of space. I now see St Augustine held the firmament to be all the space above the Earth right up to heaven. As that includes my bit of the firmament, the space that contains air for those on Earth to breath, I was only partially right or wrong as you put it. Obviously the term waters of the Bible needs a little more study.

St Augustine held:
'For, so far as regards the day and night, with which we are familiar, He commanded those luminaries of heaven that are obvious to our senses to divide between the light and the darkness. Let there be, He says, lights in the firmament of the heaven, to divide the day from the night; and shortly after He says, And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness

'that is the first day; when in the knowledge of the firmament, which is the name given to the sky between the waters above and those beneath, that is the second day; when in the knowledge of the earth, and the sea, and all things that grow out of the earth, that is the third day; when in the knowledge of the greater and less luminaries, and all the stars, that is the fourth day; when in the knowledge of all animals that swim in the waters and that fly in the air, that is the fifth day; when in the knowledge of all animals that live on the earth, and of man himself, that is the sixth day.'

Confirmation of Earthly waters

Gray2023 · « **Reply #49 on:** November 17, 2023, 11:08:27 AM »

Quote from: cassini on November 17, 2023, 10:54:24 AM

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness"

This passage peaked my interest. If we take this literally wouldn't we only see the sun during the day and the moon at night? Yet we sometimes see the moon during the day. Science has explained why this happens so we can understand it better. Isn't this a proof that you can't take some things in the Bible as scientific facts?

cassini · « **Reply #50 on:** November 17, 2023, 11:16:19 AM »

Interesting discussion:

'Again, notes Augustine, someone (Basil in his homilies on the six days of creation (Basil, homil. in Hexaemeron, III, 8.) has interpreted the firmament to mean the air that separates the rain clouds from the condensed water on the surface of the earth. [my first Interpretation] It is firm and supportive inasmuch as it holds up the clouds after the fashion of a cushion. ( De Gen. ad litt., II, 4.) Augustine admits that the air below the clouds can be called the heaven (cf. "the birds of heaven": shamayim [Gen 7:23]), but he is unconvinced that this lower air can be called a firmament. ( De Gen. ad litt., III, 1.) In his opinion the firmament (raqia) of heaven is located in the space stretching downwards from the top of the fiery spheres through the thinner air to the top of the heavier air which can support the clouds. It is called a firmament because of its tranquility, by which it resembles the truth, "for nothing is more firm and sure than the truth": thy truth (reaches) even to the clouds (Ps 35:6; 56:11). Hence, in Augustine's opinion the creation of the Four Elements is presented in another way: all together without their distinctive forms under the word ground in verse 1, and then as distinctly formed during the second, third, and fourth days. Air as a distinct element is presented under two names in verse two: the separating out and formation of the dry upper air is expressed under the name firmament, while the moist lower air is presented under the name waters below the firmament. The heavier air is called water in that it contains moisture: it is both vaporous water and condensed air (.Imperf. lib., 14).'
-----------------------------
Ok, here is another opinion. The lord used the term waters below and the waters above, to prevent any thinking that space was infinite, a heresy some on Earth held and hold.

cassini · « **Reply #51 on:** November 17, 2023, 11:19:03 AM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on November 17, 2023, 11:08:27 AM

This passage peaked my interest. If we take this literally wouldn't we only see the sun during the day and the moon at night? Yet we sometimes see the moon during the day. Science has explained why this happens so we can understand it better. Isn't this a proof that you can't take some things in the Bible as scientific facts?

Simple explanation. The day moon does not shine. The night moon shines.

Marulus Fidelis · « **Reply #52 on:** November 17, 2023, 01:36:07 PM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on November 17, 2023, 11:08:27 AM

This passage peaked my interest. If we take this literally wouldn't we only see the sun during the day and the moon at night? Yet we sometimes see the moon during the day. Science has explained why this happens so we can understand it better. Isn't this a proof that you can't take some things in the Bible as scientific facts?

No, if the Moon rules the night that doesn't entail it can't be visible during the day.

Gray2023 · « **Reply #53 on:** November 17, 2023, 02:01:05 PM »

Here is another example of not taking the Bible as 100% fact. "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. "[Exodus 20:4]" If taken literally doesn't this mean that we should not make anything. That photographs or statues are graven. This is what the Amish believe based on this text and some protestants object to the Saint statues.

My point is that the Bible helps guide us but science has its uses too.

The moon isn't literally a light to rule the night. It does not have light of its own accord, the moon only glows because it is reflecting the sun.

And why do all the other planets show as round spheres in the sky? Why would space be a great secret that the Russians, Chinese, USA all collude on to keep people believing the earth is round? They don't work together on other things.

Incredulous · « **Reply #54 on:** November 17, 2023, 03:51:31 PM »

Just to throw this concept into the firmament mix...

Planetary Demons or Devils of the Air

Dear TIA,

Is it true that demons inhabit distant planets? Is there any evidence to support this?

Thank you

P.F.

______________________

TIA responds:

Dear P.F.,

St. Paul speaks of the “wicked spirits in the air” (Eph 6:12). The Exorcism and the Prayer to St. Michael at the end of the Mass also ask the Archangel to cast in Hell the “malign spirits wandering about the world.”

On this topic both Anne Catherine Emmerick and St. Francis of Rome explain that in the trial of the Angels, which preceded the creation of man, the angels who remain indifferent in the fight between Satan and St. Michael, were not cast into Hell, as were those who clearly supported Satan, but will remain in the air until the Final Judgment, when finally they will be sent to Hell as well.

Ven. Catherine Emmerick says that some of these devils of the air are present in planets. It is why at times she calls them “planetary spirits.”

You may find the texts of both mystics and more on this topic on this website in Spanish.

Cordially,

TIA correspondence desk

MariasAnawim · « **Reply #55 on:** November 17, 2023, 07:05:58 PM »

I am not very theological but it seems to me that as believers we either believe holy scripture or not. Either it is true or it is not. Also to use the argument that we can see with our eyes about the clouds being water...well what I see is a blue sky.. the same color as water and in the night a dark blue sky the same as the oceans in the night. It seems to me that the sun lights up the waters above the firmament during the day and is dark like the oceans during the night. Maybe simplistic but God does like us to like little children

Ladislaus · « **Reply #56 on:** November 17, 2023, 10:26:06 PM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on November 17, 2023, 02:01:05 PM

Here is another example of not taking the Bible as 100% fact. "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. "[Exodus 20:4]" If taken literally doesn't this mean that we should not make anything. That photographs or statues are graven. This is what the Amish believe based on this text and some protestants object to the Saint statues.

So you're basically putting the same misinterpretation on those passages from Sacred Scripture that the various Prots do. This means ... IN CONTEXT ... not to make graven things FOR IDOLS, i.e. FOR THE PURPOSE of worshipping them. It's easy to excise one verse and take it out of its context. This does not mean that God did not mean what He said. These are reported to be the words of God by Sacred Scripture. What kind of Modernism is this to deny that God said these things as Sacred Scripture clearly reports?

If you actually add a couple verses before and after these words back in, you see the actual CONTEXT:

Quote

1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

If you add back the verse before, 3, and the verse after, 5, your out-of-context verse 4, it's clear that what God is speaking of (yes, 100% FACT) is that they are not to make these images of creatures to worship or adore or serve.

Gray2023 · « **Reply #57 on:** November 17, 2023, 10:58:44 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 17, 2023, 10:26:06 PM

So you're basically putting the same misinterpretation on those passages from Sacred Scripture that the various Prots do. This means ... IN CONTEXT ... not to make graven things FOR IDOLS, i.e. FOR THE PURPOSE of worshipping them. It's easy to excise one verse and take it out of its context. This does not mean that God did not mean what He said. These are reported to be the words of God by Sacred Scripture. What kind of Modernism is this to deny that God said these things as Sacred Scripture clearly reports?

If you actually add a couple verses before and after these words back in, you see the actual CONTEXT:
If you add back the verse before, 3, and the verse after, 5, your out-of-context verse 4, it's clear that what God is speaking of (yes, 100% FACT) is that they are not to make these images of creatures to worship or adore or serve.

Ok. That may have been a bad example. I just don't see how people can think the earth is flat. What does this flat earth look like? Can you give me a map? How is it night here and day in Australia? How is the sun traveling in the sky? Is the whole space program a big hoax? A Hoax that all of the countries keep going so that people won't find out the Earth is flat.

hgodwinson · « **Reply #58 on:** November 17, 2023, 11:43:25 PM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on November 17, 2023, 02:01:05 PM

And why do all the other planets show as round spheres in the sky? Why would space be a great secret that the Russians, Chinese, USA all collude on to keep people believing the earth is round? They don't work together on other things.

I myself am a round earth heliocentrist (as I believe you are as well) but, in charity I feel it must to say that the US, Russia and China would not collaborate behind the scenes is absurd. It was American dollars that kept the Soviet economy alive during the Second World War. The FBI and KGB were known to collaborate (I myself would not be surprised if they both played a part in Vatican II). Even today, the American and Chinese economies are dependent upon one one another. I'm not saying everything is theatre, just that specifically those three nations uniting against their common enemy (Catholics) is not something that should be disregarded.

Marulus Fidelis · « **Reply #59 on:** November 18, 2023, 03:02:15 AM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on November 17, 2023, 10:58:44 PM

Ok. That may have been a bad example. I just don't see how people can think the earth is flat. What does this flat earth look like? Can you give me a map? How is it night here and day in Australia? How is the sun traveling in the sky? Is the whole space program a big hoax? A Hoax that all of the countries keep going so that people won't find out the Earth is flat.

If you're sincerely interested you might want to watch this video: https://youtu.be/a7pd-TH-grI?feature=shared

We've all been globers at one point and one by one we found the answers to all our questions, but it took some time and effort.

Author Topic: Challenge for globe earthers (Read 14922 times)

cassini

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Ladislaus

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Tradman

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cassini

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Gray2023

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cassini

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cassini

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Marulus Fidelis

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Gray2023

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Incredulous

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MariasAnawim

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Ladislaus

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Gray2023

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hgodwinson

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Marulus Fidelis

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