Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268  (Read 19932 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ethelred

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1222
  • Reputation: +2267/-0
  • Gender: Male
Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2012, 09:15:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'd like to quote a nice comment from our good Hollingsworth (from another forum on the same topic) :

    Quote from: Hollingsworth @ 1 Septembver 2012, 14:01 GMT
    I loved this EC. Hopefully, from this point on, we will never get another EC on the subject of Brahms. The bishop has finally crossed the Rubicon.


    Yes, we love this EC.

    I've to admit I also love the other ECs about topics like Brahms, modern art, and so on, because they're great applications of the Faith to the real world. There's few (SSPX) clerics who still know how to do this art.

    Of course I understand Hollingsworth's point well, and in the current heat of the final battle of the SSPX, such "Six Conditions" and "Conciliar circuмstances" EC are most helpful. Hopefully our good bishop continues to write such sharp ECs.

    May God bless Bishop Williamson, and always wield his pen.

    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1953/-361
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #61 on: September 05, 2012, 01:50:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I cannot imagine why we would not benefit from knowing about Brahms etc. in this age of discordant compositions called art, whether as applications of religious faith or as healthy standards of appreciation. The bishop's interests do extend beyond the church door which enables him to have this world view which many in the Society if not most now deprecate or find imprudent. Because of habituation or institutionalisation, parish opinion will follow the leadership and its appointees and an army of ushers on the lookout for 'trouble makers'. If the Society is now a changed creature (which it is), any challenges will be seen as actions against it and generate accusations of schism and disobedience, all the more so because possession of assets is nlne-tenths of the law.


    Offline stgobnait

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1346
    • Reputation: +941/-65
    • Gender: Female
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #62 on: September 05, 2012, 01:58:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • theres not enough of us to be called an army, anymore...... :stare:

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #63 on: September 05, 2012, 06:13:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Sienna629
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    When someone is expelled, one of the volunteers gets the fun job of hunting the
    person down and approaching them to explain that they are no longer welcome
    to the chapel. That's an assignment I would not enjoy, at - all.




    It might very well be the pastor in an SSPX Chapel, and he will no doubt relish the task.





    Really? I wasn't thinking along those lines! Wow. It's worse than I thought!

    Why don't you read stuff like this in the DICI Newsletter??

    (Yes, that is a rhetorical question!)

    Quote
    Quote
    This is an independent chapel, so the outlook is a bit different from SSPX chapels...




    No, WAY, WAY different. I cannot imagine any INDEPENDENT priest itching to sign with Apostate Rome and bear the ensuing yoke, so you would presumably have the pastor on your side. That's WAY, WAY different!


    Yes, we do have the pastor on our side, but he is not really enthusiastic with the
    situation. He's caught in the middle. Keep in mind that he has a number of
    parishoners who are of the mind that everything's okay, and that the rumor
    mill is the enemy. If he comes out explaining matters before there is substantial
    actions from Menzingen to force a sell-out, then these parishoners would write
    him off as a contributor to the rumor mill. It's a sticky situation.

    I think it would be helpful if we could get one of the persecuted priests to come
    and say Mass one Sunday for us, and give a sermon. I think that would help to
    put a firsthand witness on the radar screen. Several of our faithful have friends
    or relatives who are SSPX priests, but I'm not mentioning any names.

    But if our pastor would arrange for that, I suspect he would "rock the boat" with
    the local District parishes like Arcadia and Colton.

    I don't want to instigate any movement. I would simply like my friends to be
    aware that it's important to "fortify our homes," and to be prepared for changes.
    We really don't know how fortunate we have it, being unencuмbered by the
    wiles of Menzingen. At the same time, it is a sacrifice not to have a larger
    structure for stability and representation. I don't see our pastor as worrying
    about that, however, and his confidence is reassuring.

    I could say more, but I'd like to stick to this topic.

    Speaking of which, there is a post on another thread that pertains directly to
    this thread, which readers here may like to comment on:





    Thomas, the only condition anybody cared about was #1.  If that were granted, all the rest wouldn't matter.  Why is this?  Because no Modernist is going to agree to that.  It would mean the beginning of the end, and would signal a real conversion.

    That's the thinking.  I'm not agreeing with it, but I understand it.  The Six Conditions, as well as the Statement, were compromise texts thrashed out by men with some very different views.  With #1 in place the hard-liners felt that the text was able to be agreed to.  That does not mean they were happy with it, of course.



    What is "#1" again? Well, here is the Eleison Comment regarding #1:

    The first “essential requirement” is freedom for the Society to teach the unchanging truth of Catholic Tradition, and to criticize those responsible for the errors of modernism, liberalism and Vatican II. Well and good. But notice how the Chapter’s vision has changed from that of Archbishop Lefebvre. No longer “Rome must convert because Truth is absolute”, but now merely “The SSPX demands freedom for itself to tell the Truth.” Instead of attacking the Conciliar treachery, the SSPX now wants the traitors to give it permission to tell the Truth ? “O, what a fall was there !”




    Notice the difference between +Williamson's view and his critic's view. "The
    Chapter's vision has changed... no longer Rome must convert ... but now
    merely 'The SSPX demands freedom for itself to tell the truth'." According to
    his critic, GertrudetheinGrate, "no Modernist is going to agree to that." I dare
    say, GtG doesn't know much about Modernists. You give them an impossible
    challenge and they fairly leap for joy with the prospect of going down in
    history as a great "achiever." Or, should I say an inGrate achiever?!


    H.E. asks a question about this curious shift of principle, this quasi-sellout
    already:
    "Instead of attacking the Conciliar treachery, the SSPX now wants
    the traitors to give it permission to tell the Truth?"

    And how does his resident, ungrateful critic view this?

    "The Six Conditions, as well as the Statement, were compromise texts
    thrashed out by men with some very different views.  With #1 in place, the
    hard-liners felt that the text was able to be agreed to.
     That does not mean
    they were happy with it, of course."

    Could he have meant to say "compromised texts" or "compromising texts?"
    Could it just be a typo?   ..................Naaaah.

    Oh, don't miss the subtle disagreement with +Fellay: "That doesn't mean they
    were happy with it, of course." They were unhappy with the product of the
    GC, but +Fellay says that "profound unity prevailed." If each one's desires
    were "compromised," everyone went away unhappily compromised. So does
    he mean to say that ALL the capitulants were profoundly united in
    unhappiness? Is that what +Fellay was thinking when he said they were
    united, standing at the tomb of ABL???????


    We should be able to see here why H.E. was "disinvited" from the GC. If he
    had been there, there would not have been this easy compromise, this
    quasi sell-out already. For in his absence, what we have is a smoldering,
    festering unhappiness, a difference of opinion that lurks under the surface,
    a difference that makes some pastors "relish the task" of informing certain
    parishoners that they are no longer welcome: you know, like +Fellay did
    to one, certain brother bishop in July!! HAHAHA


    P.S. Why say "able to be agreed to" instead of "agreeable?" Could it be that
    there was just too much resistance in the typing fingers to be "agreeable"
    with the "hard liners?" And so, it's better to end the sentence in a preposition
    and look like a schmuck-yokel, who can't express himself very effectively?
     
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #64 on: September 05, 2012, 07:19:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Seraphim
    Quote from: Seraphia
    I most definitely will post this at the back of the SSPX Chapel I attend! It's such a small thing to do, but those who do not have internet access deserve to be informed. If I cannot stand up for what I believe now, how am I to stand up to what is coming?



    I wouldn't do that.

    The article is very well written, and makes some good points.

    However, it still suffers from the traditional Feenyite errors:

    1) No salvation outside the Church is true enough;

    2) But grace operates outside the Church; (outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace- Dogma)

    3) And in those whom grace sanctifies, they by that action alone become members of the Church;(how can they be sanctified outside of the Church if there is no sanctifying grace outside of the Church?)
    4) So that if a man die justified, he is saved;

    5) so acknowledging implicit or explicit baptism of desire is really nothing more than acknowledging that sanctifying grace will exist in the souls of those Catholics who have not yet had the opportunity to manifest their desire to become the Catholics they already are (so God's grace did not give them enough information, nor send them a teacher, nor keep them alive long enough to find out they need to be baptized? They were born by mistake in the wrong place and died before God could finish what he started?)
    ...
    5) Fr Feeney denies this because he understands "no salvation outside the Church" to mean "no salvation without water baptism;" (not really. Fr. Feeney believed the same as St. Augustine, “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ )


    6) But since Trent declares that all the justified are saved, as opposed to Fr Feeney, who puts these in Limbo, we can see easily that Fr Feeney was heading down the wrong path;( Trent makes no mention of what happens to a person who is justified, but dies before he can be baptized. Fr. Feeney never said they go to limbo. Fr. Feeney, like St. Augustine did not believe that such a person ever existed)

    7) in short, grace operates outside the Church, and brings some members into Her, but since we cannot know who these are, and they will be reletively few in mumber, the mission and necessity to go forth into all nations and baptize is not diminished in the least by admitting implicit Church membership. (This mindset goes against dogmas at every turn, as minisculie explained in the other answers. Moreover, if it was true, why should they be  "relatively few in number"? This is the achilles heal of the SSPXers, they want to limit their liberalism on this point to separate themselves from the conciliarist liberals, however, this is ridiculous. The truth is that once you swallow this liberalism, there is no limiting the numbers to "relatively few". Yet another wrench in the works.







    Oh brother.

    Show me the dogma that says infants baptized in the Orthodox church (thereby becoming Catholics in fact) are damned, and I will concede.

    ........I sense a black hole approaching......discussing grace with a Feenyite who not only believes no salvation without water baptism, but also no grace outside the Church.....unless it is understood in this true sense: that there is no sanctifying grace outside he Church only because those sanctified by such grace are by that act part of the Church.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #65 on: September 05, 2012, 09:45:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Apparently Seraphim doesn't want to read....



    Or think...........





    Quote from: Matthew
    Seraphim, you need to read the whole thread.

    Seraphia was talking about posting the latest Eleison Comments at the back of her chapel, not the post (above) about 2 posts up.

    That post totally derailed this thread, and has annoyed me, so I removed it.
    She can post it in a separate thread if she wants.

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #66 on: September 06, 2012, 07:59:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    Apparently Seraphim doesn't want to read....



    Or think...........





    Quote from: Matthew
    Seraphim, you need to read the whole thread.

    Seraphia was talking about posting the latest Eleison Comments at the back of her chapel, not the post (above) about 2 posts up.

    That post totally derailed this thread, and has annoyed me, so I removed it.
    She can post it in a separate thread if she wants.



    Sweet.

    Another Feenyite converted to Catholicism!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #67 on: September 06, 2012, 08:19:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, I am in a cantankerous mood tonight.

    Wondering why there are only 5 priests of 560 who see the light has gotten my Irish up!

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline GertrudetheGreat

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 402
    • Reputation: +0/-3
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #68 on: September 06, 2012, 09:04:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Yes, I am in a cantankerous mood tonight.

    Wondering why there are only 5 priests of 560 who see the light has gotten my Irish up!



    5?  You're including the doubtfully-ordained non-member of the SSPX, Fr. Voigt, and the other non-member, Fr. Ringrose?  

    I think the current count is 2, with one more "possible".

    Let your Irish react to that!  :)

    It's always possible that it is you who doesn't "see the light" but I suppose you don't take that possibility seriously.

    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9279
    • Reputation: +9100/-872
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #69 on: September 06, 2012, 11:34:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: GertrudetheGreat
    Quote from: Seraphim
    Yes, I am in a cantankerous mood tonight.

    Wondering why there are only 5 priests of 560 who see the light has gotten my Irish up!



    5?  You're including the doubtfully-ordained non-member of the SSPX, Fr. Voigt, and the other non-member, Fr. Ringrose?  

    I think the current count is 2, with one more "possible".

    Let your Irish react to that!  :)

    It's always possible that it is you who doesn't "see the light" but I suppose you don't take that possibility seriously.



    Gertude,

    Its not the "numbers" but "quality" of our priests my lovely.

    Judas Maccabeus took 3,000 men and wasted 45,000 well-armed soldiers.
    We like these Maccabean odds!

    The Lion of Wimbledon rallies us:"Catholics must fight and fight in this titanic war between the religion of God and the religion of man."
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ethelred

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1222
    • Reputation: +2267/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #70 on: September 07, 2012, 03:33:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Yes, I am in a cantankerous mood tonight.

    Wondering why there are only 5 priests of 560 who see the light has gotten my Irish up!

    5 US priests you mean?
    However, there's life outside the USA, too.
    :-)


    Incredulous, thanks for your smart comments. Indeed we like these Maccabean odds, and we love our Bishop Richard Lionheart Williamson!


    Offline stgobnait

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1346
    • Reputation: +941/-65
    • Gender: Female
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #71 on: September 07, 2012, 03:43:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • there is life outside the usa........ i wouldnt be counting on us here too much  :sad:

    Offline Ethelred

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1222
    • Reputation: +2267/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #72 on: September 07, 2012, 04:14:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: stgobnait
    there is life outside the usa........ i wouldnt be counting on us here too much  :sad:

    Well, it's not us laypeople who count but the clerics.
    (Who then in-turn ought to be supported by us laymen.)

    And we Europeans have some smart resistance clerics, too, who're usually already connected with the resistance in USA. For example Bishop Williamson in England, who in turn is through God's ways well connected with the resistance in continental Europe.

    One Lion of Wimbledon can easily cope with 15 Fraidy Cats of Menzingen.

    ... to use the Maccabeus odds metaphor.

    Obviously hard times are ahead of us! But "Our help is in the name of the Lord".
    Something the modernists who want to join Newrome can't say.

    Offline Belloc

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6600
    • Reputation: +615/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #73 on: September 07, 2012, 07:16:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Bishop Williamson
    These were hammered out by discussion amongst the 39 capitulants of early July.  (Emphasis added.)


    The nature and tone of these remarks by Bishop Williamson gives credence to Father Pfeiffer's recent comments that claim Bishop Fellay is hell bent (pardon the pun) on reaching a deal with Conciliar, and unconverted, rome.


    what boggles my mind is why Fellay seems to act with others, but NOT his fellow Bishops??? Advice from priests,etc=none from the other 3 Bishops???
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Adolphus

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 467
    • Reputation: +467/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Eleison Comments by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCLXVIII - 268
    « Reply #74 on: September 09, 2012, 11:48:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Yes, I am in a cantankerous mood tonight.

    Wondering why there are only 5 priests of 560 who see the light has gotten my Irish up!

    Not all the priests could or wanted to attend the resistance meeting at Vienna, Virginia.  But one has to count them as well.  In South America there are at least six priests preaching the sane doctrine and bringing the true sacraments to the faithful.  Five of them left the SSPX or were expelled from it due to the wrong way taken by Bp. Fellay.  The other priest, Fr. Grosso, was re-ordained by Bp. de Galarreta and did not enter the Society following Bp. Williamson's advice.

    But, as pointed in some other comments, is not the number which counts.  What really counts is to be on the side where the Truth is.