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Author Topic: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?  (Read 8269 times)

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Offline Castilho

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Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2025, 11:28:52 AM »
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  • Isso é terrível. Estou praticamente desistindo da FSSPX por causa desse problema. Sempre tem um padre convertido por aí, deixando hóstias consagradas duvidosamente no tabernáculo.

    E, como já afirmei antes, o Bispo Tomás de Aquino não se opõe ao novo rito:



    Fonte: https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/em-defesa-do-pe-jahir-e-de-seu-sacerd%C3%B3cio

    Então, você também não está seguro na Resistência, caso os outros bispos pensem como This depends on each case. Father Gregory Hesse was also ordained in the Novus Ordo and Bishop Williamson said that a new ordination was not necessary.  

    Offline Castilho

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #31 on: March 07, 2025, 11:38:11 AM »
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  • OFather Jahir was ordained in 1968 by the then Archbishop of Salvador and Primate of Brazil Cardinal Augusto Alvaro da Silva. The Archbishop was consecrated bishop in 1911. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #32 on: March 07, 2025, 12:01:24 PM »
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  • +Aquinas
    Quote
    Dom Lefebvre did not question the ordinations in the new rite. The only thing he said can be questioned is the bishop's intention,

    :facepalm:

    Seriously?  No.  In fact, it's the Bishop's intention that CANNOT be questioned (absent anything that might be manifested publicly), as the Church has always PRESUMED intention of the Rite itself expressed the Catholic intention.  If the Rite doesn't express the Catholic intention, then the RITE is questionable even if the proper intention is supplied.  Quick perusal of Pope Leo XIII's Apostolicae Curae would suffice to clarify this.

    I've never seen such ass-backwards bad theology regarding the Sacraments.

    This nonsense goes back to the day of The Nine I'm afraid, where the SSPX had to come up with some way to force the acceptance of NO Orders on SSPX priests in the interests of playing nithe with Wojtyla.  So they threw The Nine under the bus.

    Interesting that on another thread, a prominent Resistance supporter attacked Father Mawdsley as a "married layman", when those two are PRECISELY the exact same counts that SSPX jettisoned The Nine over, acceptance of NO annulments (which she rejects here) and the NO Orders (which she also rejects here).  Ironic.

    We also had prominent Resistance supporters here (i.e. SeanJohnson) very forcefully arguing that there are doubts with NO Orders outside of just some internal-forum-and-therefore-unknowable "intention".  Again Leo XIII clarified that what's at issue is the intention of the RITE, not the individual.  If the RITE expresses the Catholic intention, the intention of any minister using the Rite is presumed by the Church.  If the RITE does NOT express the Catholic intention, then the RITE ITSELF is suspect, and no amount of internal-forum intention by the minister could "wish" it into validity.  Those principles are quite clear ... but they've been inverted by SSPX for decades now, and it looks like +Aquinas is following that same ridiculous line.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #33 on: March 07, 2025, 12:05:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    This depends on each case. Father Gregory Hesse was also ordained in the Novus Ordo and Bishop Williamson said that a new ordination was not necessary.

    Sure. As great as he was, I don't agree with Bp. Williamson on everything. In my opinion, it does not depend on each case at all. Each and every case is doubtful.


    OFather Jahir was ordained in 1968 by the then Archbishop of Salvador and Primate of Brazil Cardinal Augusto Alvaro da Silva. The Archbishop was consecrated bishop in 1911.

    Then the archbishop must have used the new rite of ordination, which started to be used just in 1968, otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for Bp. Thomas Aquinas to write this letter.

    I don't have a problem with people who like the new rites and believe that they are valid. I just won't be receiving any sacraments from priests ordained or consecrated in these rites.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #34 on: March 07, 2025, 12:13:04 PM »
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  • The label, Resistance, has largely lost its original meaning. For myself, it has pretty much come down to evaluating trad chapels on their own merits including those of the SSPX. In as much is as reasonable, look into the background of the priest(s) and at the lifestyles and general demeanor of the people. If it sounds Protestant, it kind of is. If I had to be in 100% agreement with all stands on issues outside of rejecting the novus ordo, I would not hear Mass, receive Sacraments, associate with other trads—-ever. I’d change my surname to Dimond, but even they have one another. 
    I’d change my CathInfo name from Seraphina to LoneRangerCatholic. 
    God doesn’t expect me to judge in the internal forum. All I can do is my best within the Church Militant. 
    After doing my best, the following maxims apply. 
    1) Keep out of trivial disputes.
    2) Maintain a certain distance. “Don’t ask; don’t tell.”
    3) Assume Catholic intent unless there is a obvious reason to believe otherwise.
    4) If in positive doubt, go without.
    5) Keep my end in mind. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #35 on: March 07, 2025, 12:19:33 PM »
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  • Each and every case is doubtful.

    THIS^^^

    Enough has most certainly changed to constitute postive doubt at the very least.  This "intention" game they're playing was just the reason for them to force their validity down everyone's throats when they were trying to get Wojtyla to allow them to make the "Experiment of Tradition" (just like +Fellay is doing now).  They couldn't very well reconcile wiht Wojtyla while telling him that NO Sacraments are invalid.

    LOL ... I know a priest who had been ordained directly by Wojtyla himself but was conditionally ordained by +Williamson later.

    So, listen, either there is positive doubt or there isn't.  If there is, then the faithful cannot approach them for Sacraments except in danger of death.  If there isn't, then there's no justification for conditional ordinations at all.  But they came up with this "intention" thing so they can justify doing it and also not doing it, depending on the politics of any specific case.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #36 on: March 07, 2025, 12:48:22 PM »
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  • Then the archbishop must have used the new rite of ordination, which started to be used just in 1968...
    A significant nuance exists in this statement:  which STARTED to be used just in 1968...

    The new rites of ordination were promulgated in 1968, but up to two to three years elapsed before the new -- and costly -- liturgical books were had everywhere. That era saw the advent of the mimeographed or photocopied (called "xeroxed" in those days) liturgical rites shoved into unsightly binders for Masses and sacraments. Not all bishops would tolerate this and continued to use the books on hand with the old rite until the new could be purchased.

    In other words, every Novus Ordo episcopal ordination from that point forward needs to be examined for validity -- which form was used? Most may be doubtful, some are invalid, yet others prove valid. The same applies to presbyteral ordinations because of the vanishing "ut" in the form.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline drphil

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #37 on: March 07, 2025, 10:01:58 PM »
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  • Hello, OP here. I asked out of genuine curiousness, and it was inspired from a Reddit poster's question. Ofc ppl who ask such questions on Reddit get destroyed for even implying they associate with anything SSPX let alone SSPX resistance. I am new to the Catholic faith and was naive of the crisis until after I was baptized and confirmed (Novus Ordo I'm sure some of you may consider such invalid, although even by trad terms I believe my baptism was done legitimately.) Once i learned the of the betrayal in the Church that occurred during and even leading up to V2 i became pretty obsessive in trying to find out, and cope with my faith. Im very confident in the Catholic Church and that it has the fullness of Truth... but I can't in good conscience continue to go to the Novus Ordo, it is actually very heavy on me to continue to witness what I have knowing what I know now (very little). Thank you for the discussion here as it helps. The SSPX (neo-sspx as some seem to refer to the non-resistance strain since Fellay) would be my only logical weekly option for Mass, there is no SSPX resistance in my state and the nearest sedes meet once a month, 4 hours away (CMRI). I live in a spiritual wasteland. it sucks. I feel like this whole crisis is very hard for new converts because if they go my path, they have barely had the chance to read up on the fundamentals (you learn jack in NO RCIA) before figuring all this out, especially if they have a busy life.


    Offline LakeEnjoyer

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #38 on: March 08, 2025, 01:56:45 AM »
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  • Hello, OP here. I asked out of genuine curiousness, and it was inspired from a Reddit poster's question. Ofc ppl who ask such questions on Reddit get destroyed for even implying they associate with anything SSPX let alone SSPX resistance. I am new to the Catholic faith and was naive of the crisis until after I was baptized and confirmed (Novus Ordo I'm sure some of you may consider such invalid, although even by trad terms I believe my baptism was done legitimately.) Once i learned the of the betrayal in the Church that occurred during and even leading up to V2 i became pretty obsessive in trying to find out, and cope with my faith. Im very confident in the Catholic Church and that it has the fullness of Truth... but I can't in good conscience continue to go to the Novus Ordo, it is actually very heavy on me to continue to witness what I have knowing what I know now (very little). Thank you for the discussion here as it helps. The SSPX (neo-sspx as some seem to refer to the non-resistance strain since Fellay) would be my only logical weekly option for Mass, there is no SSPX resistance in my state and the nearest sedes meet once a month, 4 hours away (CMRI). I live in a spiritual wasteland. it sucks. I feel like this whole crisis is very hard for new converts because if they go my path, they have barely had the chance to read up on the fundamentals (you learn jack in NO RCIA) before figuring all this out, especially if they have a busy life.

    In your situation I would go to the SSPX for the sacraments. 

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #39 on: March 08, 2025, 03:15:57 AM »
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  • Hello, OP here. I asked out of genuine curiousness, and it was inspired from a Reddit poster's question. Ofc ppl who ask such questions on Reddit get destroyed for even implying they associate with anything SSPX let alone SSPX resistance. I am new to the Catholic faith and was naive of the crisis until after I was baptized and confirmed (Novus Ordo I'm sure some of you may consider such invalid, although even by trad terms I believe my baptism was done legitimately.) Once i learned the of the betrayal in the Church that occurred during and even leading up to V2 i became pretty obsessive in trying to find out, and cope with my faith. Im very confident in the Catholic Church and that it has the fullness of Truth... but I can't in good conscience continue to go to the Novus Ordo, it is actually very heavy on me to continue to witness what I have knowing what I know now (very little). Thank you for the discussion here as it helps. The SSPX (neo-sspx as some seem to refer to the non-resistance strain since Fellay) would be my only logical weekly option for Mass, there is no SSPX resistance in my state and the nearest sedes meet once a month, 4 hours away (CMRI). I live in a spiritual wasteland. it sucks. I feel like this whole crisis is very hard for new converts because if they go my path, they have barely had the chance to read up on the fundamentals (you learn jack in NO RCIA) before figuring all this out, especially if they have a busy life.
    Welcome to the Faith. Deo gratias!
    I agree, attend the SSPX, but stay aware of the issues.
    The SSPX is surely infiltrated, just as Pope Pius X warned us in Pascendi that the enemy is now within.
    The Society made a U turn back in 2012 down a road that, ever since 1988, it had warned was the road to death, to the loss of our faith: that is, an agreement with modernist Rome without first agreeing on doctrine.
    Ever since, they have changed their attitude towards the Conciliar Church, identifying it simply with the Catholic Church, and they have drastically reduced their criticism of the errors and scandals.
    They are increasingly friendly towards Ecclesia Dei type communities who accept the Council and the Novus Ordo and who have doubtful Orders.
    They increasingly allow priests from the Conciliar Church with doubtful Orders to work with them without receiving conditional ordination.
    However, there are still many solid priests who give good doctrine and valid sacraments.
    Just beware, and stay in touch with the Resistance so you know what is going on.
    And I think you should get your Baptism and definitely your Confirmation checked by a good Trad priest. You will definitely need conditional Confirmation.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #40 on: March 08, 2025, 12:11:04 PM »
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  • I'm going to copy paste what Plenus Venter said, because he said it so well --

    Welcome to the Faith. Deo gratias!
    I agree, attend the SSPX, but stay aware of the issues.
    The SSPX is surely infiltrated, just as Pope Pius X warned us in Pascendi that the enemy is now within.
    The Society made a U turn back in 2012 down a road that, ever since 1988, it had warned was the road to death, to the loss of our faith: that is, an agreement with modernist Rome without first agreeing on doctrine.
    Ever since, they have changed their attitude towards the Conciliar Church, identifying it simply with the Catholic Church, and they have drastically reduced their criticism of the errors and scandals.
    They are increasingly friendly towards Ecclesia Dei type communities who accept the Council and the Novus Ordo and who have doubtful Orders.
    They increasingly allow priests from the Conciliar Church with doubtful Orders to work with them without receiving conditional ordination.
    However, there are still many solid priests who give good doctrine and valid sacraments.
    Just beware, and stay in touch with the Resistance so you know what is going on.
    And I think you should get your Baptism and definitely your Confirmation checked by a good Trad priest. You will definitely need conditional Confirmation.


    I would add --

    Make sure you support the Resistance as much as you can.  There might be zero in your area -- for now. But on principle, you should support any priests' efforts to establish independent chapels outside the SSPX structure. You need to think ahead to the day when a newly-formed SSPX priest shows up at your SSPX chapel. And that WILL happen. The Old Guard won't live forever, nor will they necessarily be able to offer Mass until the day they pass into the next world.

    The new priests are NOT formed the same way as the old. Their attitude and beliefs re: the Conciliar Church are the same as the FSSP, if not more liberal. They are NOT the same as the position/beliefs of Archbishop Lefebvre whose apostolate (SSPX) was so highly blessed by God. Validity of your priest is important, but it is NOT THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING. 

    Think about it: immediately after Vatican II, ALL THE PRIESTS WERE VALID. And yet, how many of them breathed out Modernism and acceptance of the Modern World, and other abominations, as a dragon breathing fire? Who implemented the destruction of the Faith in millions of souls? VALID PRIESTS.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #41 on: March 08, 2025, 12:36:09 PM »
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  • I'm going to copy paste what Plenus Venter said, because he said it so well --

    They are increasingly friendly towards Ecclesia Dei type communities who accept the Council and the Novus Ordo and who have doubtful Orders.
    They increasingly allow priests from the Conciliar Church with doubtful Orders to work with them without receiving conditional ordination.

    What about Bishop Aquinas' statement that he accepts NO Orders if the bishop was an "old fashioned" type?

    Offline drphil

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #42 on: March 08, 2025, 04:43:19 PM »
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  • I'm going to copy paste what Plenus Venter said, because he said it so well --

    Welcome to the Faith. Deo gratias!
    I agree, attend the SSPX, but stay aware of the issues.
    The SSPX is surely infiltrated, just as Pope Pius X warned us in Pascendi that the enemy is now within.
    The Society made a U turn back in 2012 down a road that, ever since 1988, it had warned was the road to death, to the loss of our faith: that is, an agreement with modernist Rome without first agreeing on doctrine.
    Ever since, they have changed their attitude towards the Conciliar Church, identifying it simply with the Catholic Church, and they have drastically reduced their criticism of the errors and scandals.
    They are increasingly friendly towards Ecclesia Dei type communities who accept the Council and the Novus Ordo and who have doubtful Orders.
    They increasingly allow priests from the Conciliar Church with doubtful Orders to work with them without receiving conditional ordination.
    However, there are still many solid priests who give good doctrine and valid sacraments.
    Just beware, and stay in touch with the Resistance so you know what is going on.
    And I think you should get your Baptism and definitely your Confirmation checked by a good Trad priest. You will definitely need conditional Confirmation.


    I would add --

    Make sure you support the Resistance as much as you can.  There might be zero in your area -- for now. But on principle, you should support any priests' efforts to establish independent chapels outside the SSPX structure. You need to think ahead to the day when a newly-formed SSPX priest shows up at your SSPX chapel. And that WILL happen. The Old Guard won't live forever, nor will they necessarily be able to offer Mass until the day they pass into the next world.

    The new priests are NOT formed the same way as the old. Their attitude and beliefs re: the Conciliar Church are the same as the FSSP, if not more liberal. They are NOT the same as the position/beliefs of Archbishop Lefebvre whose apostolate (SSPX) was so highly blessed by God. Validity of your priest is important, but it is NOT THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING.

    Think about it: immediately after Vatican II, ALL THE PRIESTS WERE VALID. And yet, how many of them breathed out Modernism and acceptance of the Modern World, and other abominations, as a dragon breathing fire? Who implemented the destruction of the Faith in millions of souls? VALID PRIESTS.
    As someone from Indiana, I believe the SSPX only have 1 chapel here, and the pastor of said chapel is a recent one from the seminary in France...

    Offline drphil

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #43 on: March 08, 2025, 04:54:08 PM »
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  • Indiana has almost zero regular traditional catholic presence other than the questionable SSPX chapel headed by a younger priest, yet there are very large and popular pockets of Catholics here... it's very unfortunate

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #44 on: March 08, 2025, 05:09:26 PM »
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  • This is terrible. I am practically giving up on the SSPX because of this problem. There's always a converted priest around, leaving doubtfully consecrated hosts on the tabernacle.

    And, as I have stated before, Bp. Thomas Aquinas does not oppose the new rite:



    Source: https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/em-defesa-do-pe-jahir-e-de-seu-sacerd%C3%B3cio

    So, you are not safe in the Resistance either, in case the other bishops think like him.

    Good observation Giovanni.

    The neo-SSPX & SSPX Resistance are weak because their history and culture were born in compromise.  

    It started with +ABL's acceptance of the 1962 Liturgy which is the Bugnini/Montini butchering of Holy Week.

    While much has been written by both factions to justify this compromise, the fact is, +ABL was pressured and caved to this newChurch demand.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi