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Author Topic: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)  (Read 2697 times)

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Offline jorgec

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Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
« on: March 11, 2025, 11:21:26 PM »
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  • Has anyone else noticed that the SSPX has bilingual masses?

    Here is the deal (I waited almost a year to share to make sure it was not just a one-time thing)

    I live in Mexico, and in one of the Masses I go (SSPX) I've noticed that when it is time to say the epistle and I think also the gospel they (plural, around 3 different SSPX priests) say the portion in both latin and spanish, but sometimes only in spanish.

    Sometimes they say spanish first (as if part of the rite of the mass) and sometimes they say latin first, turn around to the congregation, and repeat the same in spanish.

    Since these are not part of the prayers of consecration, I am not concerned with validity, but I was shocked that they would do this at all to be completely honest. If my intuition is correct, changing the rubrics is a sin, but if someone has a quote on that, it be helpful.

    Who they asked to get "permission"?
    Why they did this? (is there an article on this idea or instruction)?
    Is this an occurence also in France? in the USA?

    Thinking-emoji . jpg

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #1 on: March 11, 2025, 11:42:02 PM »
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  • This has been discussed recently somewhere.

    The epistle they will sometimes say only in the vernacular (Spanish in your case), but the Gospel they will always say it first in Latin and then in the vernacular. I experience the same here in Brazil.

    It seems that it happens in France, but it has never been a custom in English speaking countries. They are now trying to shove it down people's throats in the USA and God knows where else.


    Offline jorgec

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #2 on: March 11, 2025, 11:51:27 PM »
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  • This has been discussed recently somewhere.

    The epistle they will sometimes say only in the vernacular (Spanish in your case), but the Gospel they will always say it first in Latin and then in the vernacular. I experience the same here in Brazil.

    It seems that it happens in France, but it has never been a custom in English speaking countries. They are now trying to shove it down people's throats in the USA and God knows where else.
    Thanks for the info. It's appreciated.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #3 on: March 12, 2025, 08:55:09 AM »
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  • This has been discussed recently somewhere.

    The epistle they will sometimes say only in the vernacular (Spanish in your case), but the Gospel they will always say it first in Latin and then in the vernacular. I experience the same here in Brazil.

    It seems that it happens in France, but it has never been a custom in English speaking countries. They are now trying to shove it down people's throats in the USA and God knows where else.

    Just to clarify again, these specific changes started in 1958, during Pius XII's pontificate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgical_reforms_of_Pope_Pius_XII


    Quote
    Use of the vernacular

    Permission for the use of the vernacular for parts of the Mass had been granted on occasion long before the papacy of Pius XII; including in 1906 by Pius X (parts of Yugoslavia), Benedict XV in 1920 (Croatian, Slovenian, and Czech), Pius XI in 1929 (Bavaria).[3]

    Under Pius XII, the Sacred Congregation of Rites granted permission for the use of local languages in countries with expanding Catholic mission activities, including in Indonesia and Japan in 1941–2. In 1949 permission was granted for using Mandarin Chinese in Mass except for the Canon, and for the use of Hindi in India in 1950. Permission was also granted to use a French (1948) and German (1951) translation for rituals other than Mass.[3]

    As a means of increasing the participation of the congregation in the celebration of Mass, recognizing that joining in chant is not possible at a Mass that is "read" rather than sung, in 1958 Pius approved the use of hymns in the vernacular at appropriate points in the service.[4] As a means to closer awareness by the congregation he also allowed the epistle and gospel to be read aloud by a layman while the celebrant read them quietly in Latin.[5]

    Though insisting on the primacy of Latin in the liturgy of the Western Church (cf. Mediator Dei, par. 60), Pius XII approves the use of the vernacular in the Ritual for sacraments and other rites outside the Mass. All such permissions, however, were to be granted by the Holy See, and Pius XII strongly condemned the efforts of individual priests and communities to introduce the vernacular on their own authority. He allowed the use of the vernacular in other rites and sacraments outside the Mass,[6] in the service for Baptism and Extreme Unction.[7]



    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #4 on: March 12, 2025, 10:03:08 AM »
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  • Here in the UK it's strictly Latin during the actual Mass however during the Homily it is read in English. I am surpised in the USA that they are doing it in English, any video evidence?
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #5 on: March 12, 2025, 10:29:27 AM »
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  • Look at this:


    Quote
    In 1949 permission was granted for using Mandarin Chinese in Mass except for the Canon


    This is the 1965 mass sixteen years before.

    Offline LakeEnjoyer

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #6 on: March 12, 2025, 11:03:15 AM »
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  • Here in the UK it's strictly Latin during the actual Mass however during the Homily it is read in English. I am surpised in the USA that they are doing it in English, any video evidence?

    Yeah I've never seen, by any trad group, the Epistle or Gospel said only in the vernacular in Britain.

    Offline Theophanes

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #7 on: March 12, 2025, 11:40:45 AM »
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  • Look at this:



    This is the 1965 mass sixteen years before.
    or Paul V centuries after... such permission had been granted by Rome during 16th century, never really applied in China though... 
    and similar permissions were also granted in Persia around that same time...

    the 65 missal is not only about vernacular...


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #8 on: March 12, 2025, 12:33:08 PM »
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  • or Paul V centuries after... such permission had been granted by Rome during 16th century, never really applied in China though...
    and similar permissions were also granted in Persia around that same time...

    the 65 missal is not only about vernacular...

    Do you have the sources about this? This is interesting. I would like to know more about it.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #9 on: March 12, 2025, 03:13:34 PM »
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  • Look at this:



    This is the 1965 mass sixteen years before.
    Where's that quote from? I have a book by Fr Wickens, Christ Denied, I think it is, I haven't read yet, but I think it talks about some of the rising problems in the Church starting in China.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #10 on: March 12, 2025, 07:01:49 PM »
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  • Where's that quote from? I have a book by Fr Wickens, Christ Denied, I think it is, I haven't read yet, but I think it talks about some of the rising problems in the Church starting in China.

    Angelus' post on this thread.


    Offline jorgec

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    Re: Bilingual SSPX Mass? (Latin/ Spanish)
    « Reply #11 on: March 13, 2025, 01:09:16 AM »
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  • Just to clarify again, these specific changes started in 1958, during Pius XII's pontificate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgical_reforms_of_Pope_Pius_XII


    Thank you. This does bring a wider context that does help me understand why the SSPX might be doing this.

    Let it be on the record that I still prefer latin-only masses. :)