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Author Topic: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful  (Read 7248 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2019, 07:41:00 PM »
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  • It’s reassuring that the best argument the Novus Ordo has against traditionalists is that traditionalists are mentally unstable. I’d be worried if they had anything substantial.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #76 on: August 26, 2019, 07:47:41 PM »
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  • Cardinal Castillo Lara was responsible for the 1983 code of canon law in the Conciliar Church.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #77 on: August 26, 2019, 07:57:17 PM »
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  • This is laughable, coming from the most emotionally-driven little girl here on CI.  Even Matthew called you out for acting like a baby.  So it's not just me.

    You didn't "rebut" anything.  You provided a couple pieces of evidence which must be weighed against all the other evidence.  Rebuttal implies an argument.  All you've done is try to make a case for a certain fact based on some testimony ... which is contradicted by other testimony.  But then you have next-to-no grasp of logic, so you routinely confound your little temper tantrums with "rebuttal".

    There were several times where you had your ass beaten with logical argument, where you stormed off the thread, and then started a half dozen spam threads in your fits of temper.  One time you even announced publicly that you were leaving CI due to Matthew's toleration of heretics.  Within days you were back posting in the Anonymous forum, and then when you were outed, returned with your tail between legs ... and not holding fast to your prior blustering.  At least once you created a fake new account so that you could pretend that you hadn't caved.  Both childish and effeminate.  You start blustering like this when you feel that your beat-down is imminent and when you have nothing else rational to add.
    😂 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #78 on: August 26, 2019, 08:01:56 PM »
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  • Do I understand correctly that the basis for concluding that +Thuc was insane is that he consecrated bishops?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #79 on: August 26, 2019, 08:04:25 PM »
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  • Father Noel Barbara, who had been cited by Johnson:

    Quote
    Archbishop Lefebvre knew Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc quite well from the Second Vatican Council. He considered him to be a bishop with good doctrinal views. Like himself, this bishop belonged to the conservative group. It was because he considered him to be a Catholic bishop, committed to the faith, devoted to Mary, and having nothing to do, that he encouraged him to work with the emissaries of Palmar de Troya who had come to Econe in order to solicit his episcopal services. I heard these facts directly from Archbishop Lefebvre. One day a canon of Saint Maurice named Father Revas arrived at the seminary in Econe. He was accompanied by a priest who spoke English. A lover of the extraordinary, both had come from the location of the Apparitions. They came straight from Palmar to beg Archbishop Lefebvre to come to this location immediately because the Blessed Virgin was waiting for him. She was insisting that a Catholic bishop come in order to confer the episcopacy on those she planned to designate. The Archbishop excused himself and advised them to “approach Archbishop Thuc. He is orthodox and he is not at present occupied. Go and seek him out. He will most certainly agree with your request.” The two messengers immediately left and had no difficulty in convincing the elderly Vietnamese Archbishop to respond to the Virgin’s request. As I explained, I have these explanations directly from the mouth of Archbishop Lefebvre. He informed us of these facts on the occasion of a visit I made to Econe when someone brought up the name of Archbishop Thuc at the dinner tabl

    So +Lefebvre told Father Barbara in person that HE had encouraged the Palmar group to approach Thuc, saying, "He will most certainly agree with your request.  So +Thuc is visited by a priest who informs him that +Lefebvre had asked him to see to the needs of (i.e. cooperate with) these emissaries, and that isn't sufficient ground for him to take the request seriously?

    Johnson, I submit, that based on your reasoning, it's more +Lefebvre who should be considered mentally incompetent, and all the ordinations he performed afterward, including the episcopal consecrations, should be regarded as doubtful.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #80 on: August 26, 2019, 08:09:50 PM »
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  • Dr. Coomaraswami, M.D., an assistant professor of psychology --

    Quote
    It is my understanding that the professor of Canon Law at Econe accompanied Archbishop Thuc on this venture. If this episode is to be used as the basis of demonstrating the “senility” of Archbishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc, then one must argue that Archbishop Lefebvre and his canon lawyer must have been equally senile. Of course, Father Noel Barbara is elderly and occasionally forgetful. Perhaps he is also senile. And what are we to say of Bishop Guerard and Bishop Carmona’s inability to recognize that they were being consecrated by a doddering old fool? (Quod absit.) Are we then to consider anyone whose thoughts or actions we find offensive as senile? Let us now turn to the issue of senility, or to use the more precise psychiatric term, dementia. Here we indeed have an example of fools stepping where angels fear to tread. Few things are more difficult to determine than the presence of minor and subtle degrees of dementia. . . . Polemicists speak of the necessity of the “full command of reason.” If by this phrase one understands that the individual is at all times logical, then almost everyone involved in the current controversies—where lack of reason is so often manifested—would be administering invalid sacraments. I would suggest, however, that what is meant by this phrase is not that a priest at all times be some paragon of reasoning ability, but that he know what he is about when confecting a sacrament. There is absolutely no evidence that Archbishop Thuc did not know what he was doing or that he was acting unwillingly. It is absurd to suggest that a person can go through a three-hour relatively public and highlydemanding ceremony such as an episcopal consecration, and not know what he is doing. . . . Allow me to conclude by stating that the diatribes asserting that Archbishop NgoDinh-Thuc was suffering from “senile dementia,” “mental impairment,” “doubtful lucidity,” or “lacked the full command of reason,” to say nothing about their declaring him “insane,” are patently absurd and the supposed evidence offered for such affirmations only exists in the minds of those who would use insinuation and innuendo to αssαssιnαtҽ his character. Even if appropriate testing had been performed and some mild loss of memory or cognitive function demonstrated, there would be no grounds for declaring him incompetent. What is at issue is competence and in psychiatry, as well as in theology, an act is considered “sane” or “rational” (sacramental theology would add “human”) when the person who performs it knows what he is doing and freely wills to do it. Not having examined the Archbishop personally, I am not in a position to give any psychiatric opinion as to the state of his mentation. However, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it seems patently obvious that we must consider him to have been fully aware of what he was doing and in no way either “conned” or coerced. In essence, we are forced to assume that he acted in his right mind and was fully competent. We simply cannot go around declaring those whose actions, judgments and thoughts we find personally abhorrent are somehow mentally defective. To do so is plain and simple calumny.
     
    You hear that, Johnson?  Calumny.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #81 on: August 26, 2019, 08:12:33 PM »
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  • You look a bit foolish continuing to argue, when you were checkmated 1.5 page ago.

    Oh, the froth and the lather!

    What is more pathtic than a sede Feeneyite??

    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #82 on: August 26, 2019, 08:21:23 PM »
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  • from Dirksen's work, which anyone who wants to honestly find the truth ...

    Quote
    But let us also focus on the evidence for Bp. Thuc’s sanity. What follows is a brief scorecard of eyewitnesses who knew Bp. Thuc and could testify regarding his sanity at the time of the consecrations in 1981:

    What is the evidence of the eyewitnesses who knew Archbishop Thuc?

    1. Dr. Hiller and Dr. Heller. These are the two German eyewitnesses of both these consecrations. They knew Archbishop Thuc intimately, having seen him regularly when the Archbishop resided in Munich for a number of months. They have both testified under oath, one in writing, the other orally, with God as their witness, that Archbishop Thuc was in full command of his faculties when he performed the above mentioned consecrations. These laymen are well-educated, intelligent, and alert; there is absolutely no reason to doubt their veracity or their ability to judge the Archbishop’s state of mind.

    2. Fr. Noël Barbara. Fr. Barbara went to see Archbishop Thuc in the Spring of 1981 and then again in January 1982. He thus saw him both before and after the consecrations. Fr. Barbara has sworn, in writing, with God as his witness, that both times he found Archbishop Thuc to be in full use of his mental faculties, and that he answered the questions put to him about the consecrations clearly. Fr. Barbara also wrote, immediately after the January visit, notes concerning his conversation with Archbishop Thuc. These notes reflect the clear mind of the Archbishop, as he answered questions with clarity and distinct memory.

    3. Fr. Gustave Delmasure. This priest, who was a well-respected traditional priest in France, former pastor of a parish in Cannes, went to see Archbishop Thuc in March of 1982. He has given sworn testimony, with God as his witness, that he found Archbishop Thuc to be in his right mind, and that he responded to his questions with swiftness and clarity.

    4. Bishop Guérard des Lauriers. In a personal interview with Fr. Joseph Collins, Bishop Guérard des Lauriers, who himself had been consecrated in May, 1981 by Archbishop Thuc, attested to the fact that the Archbishop was in his right mind. He said that the rite of consecration was followed integrally by Archbishop Thuc, and that he (Thuc) was of sound mind throughout the ceremony. (Bishop Guérard des Lauriers was a well-known Dominican theologian who taught at the Lateran University in Rome, and who advised Pope Pius XII on the definition of the dogma of the Assumption in 1950).

    5. Fr. Philippe Guépin. Fr. Guépin is a traditional priest who says Mass for a large group in Nantes. He was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1977, and was asked to leave the Society of St. Pius X in 1980 because he refused to recognize John Paul II as pope. He knew Archbishop Thuc at Ecône, and had prolonged conversations with him. He has attested that Archbishop Thuc was in his right mind.

    6. Fr. Bruno Schaeffer, who was ordained by Abp. Thuc in 1982 (after the episcopal consecrations) told Fr. Guépin that Abp. Thuc was completely in his right mind, and that he observed the rite of ordination perfectly.

    7. Eyewitnesses who saw him and knew him in Rochester, New York, where Abp. Thuc stayed in 1983 and 1984, also attested to the fact that even at that time, shortly before his death in 1984, Abp. Thuc was in his right mind, and offered daily Mass. To this list we may also add the name of Mr. James Condit, Jr., of Cincinnati, Ohio, who met Bp. Thuc in Northern Kentucky in early 1982. Mr. Condit told me personally that he had found the bishop to be of entirely sound mind and that he had offered Holy Mass with great decorum. Furthermore, the bishop had distributed Holy Communion without any help from then-Fr. Louis Vezelis, who was also present, and this at an attendance of over 100 adults and children, according to Mr. Condit’s recollection.

    While I am also aware of also other eyewitnesses who are on record testifying to Bp. Thuc’s sanity and mental stability, including Bp. Robert McKenna, Fr. Neil Webster, and Fr. Francis Miller.  With all of this eyewitness testimony sufficient to allow us to have moral certitude regarding Bp. Thuc’s lucidity, it is reasonable to ask the following questions: [A]re all these people liars? All of these eyewitnesses say the same thing, even though they knew Abp Thuc at different times and in different circuмstances. Are they all lying? It would be ridiculous to say such a thing. Those who would have us believe, for whatever reason, that Archbishop Thuc was not lucid are telling us to conclude that all the eyewitnesses cited above are BOLDFACED LIARS. That would mean that faithful Roman Catholic priests, some of them ordained for fifty years or more, and who have labored for the salvation of souls their whole lives, are LIARS, calling down the authority of God to witness to their wicked lies. This they would do shortly before they go to God for judgement, and in such important a matter as an episcopal consecration. This supposition is absurd and very uncharitable. There is no better testimony than that of sworn eyewitnesses. No one can reasonably fault someone for taking the word of reliable sworn eyewitnesses. I remind you that the classic, time-tested, and universal way in which to establish a fact is the sworn eyewitness testimony of reliable witnesses. It is the way in which every court of law determines the fact of crime or innocence. Based on such testimony, human beings are either exonerated or condemned, sometimes to death. The law courts of the Catholic Church operate on the sworn testimony of reliable witnesses. Most importantly, our Blessed Lord sanctioned the practice with divine approval: And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. (Matthew 18:16) And in the Gospel of Saint Mark, Our Lord upbraids the disciples for not having believed the witnesses of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14).


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #83 on: August 26, 2019, 08:51:34 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, please have mercy on Sean.  Sean, please stop committing intellectual ѕυιcιdє.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #84 on: August 26, 2019, 10:12:33 PM »
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  • My name is Sean Inigo Montoya Johnson, you killed my thread, prepare to die!


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #85 on: August 27, 2019, 04:26:36 AM »
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  • You look a bit foolish continuing to argue, when you were checkmated 1.5 page ago.

    Oh, the froth and the lather!

    What is more pathtic than a sede Feeneyite??

    :popcorn:
    :facepalm:  “checkmated”  :facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #86 on: August 27, 2019, 05:33:23 AM »
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  • Another nonsensical accusation supposedly supporting the invalidity of the Thuc line is the supposed fact that holy orders done in secret are invalid. Bishop Kelly promoted this on page 67 of his “red book”. Mario does an admirable job refuting this falsehood and to support him, I came across this interesting case from “The Casuist” Volume V:

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #87 on: August 27, 2019, 05:39:12 AM »
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  • Unfortunately some people with the R&R mindset will look at the above and brush it off under the umbrella that the Church made mistakes then just as they do today.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #88 on: August 27, 2019, 07:44:43 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  “checkmated”  :facepalm:

    Right, he cited two people who were speculating that Thuc might be unbalanced due to his erratic behavior.  That just nailed his case shut.

    No person seeking the truth could read Derksen's work without concluding that --
    http://www.thucbishops.com/Open_Letter_to_%20Bp_Kelly_FULL.pdf

    1) there's no positive doubt about the major +Thuc consecrations (des Lauriers, Carmona, Zamora)

    and

    2) Father Kelly was dishonest in his campaign against +Thuc, manipulating and selectively quoting sources to make it falsely appear as if they supported his case.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #89 on: August 27, 2019, 08:37:14 AM »
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  • What a sad joke.

    Encouraging people to attend sacraments by doubtful priests and bishops is a serious failing.

    Hopefully you do it from honest error, and not agenda.

    I will pray for (all) your repentance and conversions.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."