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Author Topic: The American Turkey Indult  (Read 45542 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: The American Turkey Indult
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2019, 02:29:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 13, 2019, 08:54:25 AM
    I think I was probably one of the first to publicly question -then doubt- the existence of this indult (for about the last 4-5 years), until the link in the OP was shown to me on another forum.

    After that, I no longer question its existence, and am not sure why QVD continued to.

    That said, whether or not the indult was a prudent dispensation is certainly open to question, and of course people will disagree here.

    Personally, I found it unnecessary and worldly, but...

    I guess a question which I am still unclear on is whether the indult was limited to turkey, or is all meat permissible (eg., what about American families who have ham or other meats?  Can they have that on Friday too?)?

    In any case, I think for most trads, an indult for eating meat on a Friday following a merely civil holiday would leave one feeling a bit uneasy (not because there would be sin, but because of the worldly motives which inspired the indult).

    It seems the indult was part of a larger trend of worldly American laxist disciplinary norms (eg., the pre-conciliar trad world mocked American norms for Lent, where most of the rest of the world practiced daily fast and abstinence, but Americans only fast and partial abstinence).
    Yes, and I, for one, appreciated that you did do that.  I do think the OP was remiss in not including the information that is found as part of the search that I linked above, so it is clear where the information originally came from....so I can understand why QVD was looking for more.

    As for turkey vs ham, I would suspect it was all meat given it says abstinence, not just abstinence from turkey.  For me, I had an opportunity to have bacon that morning at the hotel we stayed at, but refrained since it had nothing to do with Thanksgiving. However, I did have turkey at the Thanksgiving dinner I shared with my family.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #46 on: December 13, 2019, 02:36:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 13, 2019, 11:19:03 AM
    Sure, but if Mr. G is correct that the Masonic US government really scheduled the civil holiday on Thursday so Catholics could participate, then it means that even they had an expectation that the holiday was a one-day event, and that on Friday Catholics would not eat meat.

    And if secular America later transformed Thanksgiving into a 4-day bacchanalia (despite having more food/menu items than anywhere else in the world), it would seem the Catholic hierarchy was following their lead.
    Wait, why would the masonic government want to help Catholics participate? Maybe Mr G could provide support for that?
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #47 on: December 15, 2019, 09:58:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 13, 2019, 02:36:03 PM
    Wait, why would the masonic government want to help Catholics participate? Maybe Mr G could provide support for that?

    But look what it has morphed into?

    With Black Friday, it is 4 days of gluttony and materialism.

    The jews key their entire annual sales forecast on their Black Friday sales revenue.

    And most Catholics participate in the extended pagan weekend with revelry.

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #48 on: December 15, 2019, 01:02:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on December 15, 2019, 09:58:46 AM
    But look what it has morphed into?

    With Black Friday, it is 4 days of gluttony and materialism.

    The jews key their entire annual sales forecast on their Black Friday sales revenue.

    And most Catholics participate in the extended pagan weekend with revelry.
    True, but I question how many "Catholics" really do participate to this extent.  Perhaps many who identify as Catholic, but not actually Catholic.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #49 on: December 15, 2019, 01:39:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 15, 2019, 01:02:30 PM
    True, but I question how many "Catholics" really do participate to this extent.  Perhaps many who identify as Catholic, but not actually Catholic.


    Of course, they've lost their Catholic bearings.

    And who is immediately responsible for that?

    It would have to be the bishops, whose duty is to remind the flock how to think and act like Catholics.

    But, as the old saying goes, the floor of Hell is tiled with apostate Catholic bishops.

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #50 on: December 27, 2019, 05:53:41 PM »
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    • I finally received Volume 5 of Canon Law Digest by Bouscaren. I only had volumes 1 through 4 in my library as volume 5 didn’t seem to me to be too necessary since it mostly contained the acts of John XXIII 1958-1962.


    For many years I questioned the validity of the so called “turkey indult” and never participated in it. Firstly, I have never found any proof of it’s existence until this thread supposedly gave the evidence. Secondly, I found it strange that Pope Pius XII would have granted such an indult since the national holiday is always on the fourth Thursday of November and not on the Friday. Ladislaus uses the argument “ It's not about the meat, but rather about allowing for the entire weekend to be festive, rather than immediately tempering it with a penitential day.” This seems to be a fair argument in favor of the indult, but I have never seen a similar case when the Church acted this way. If anyone has an example, please let me know. Thirdly, the argument that the indult was given due to lack of refrigeration or to not allow the meat to spoil, obviously doesn’t hold water.


    It is my contention that this indult was given in 1962 under John XXIII (as you can see from the photo below) and that the online “proof” was falsified, possibly nefariously, to make one believe that the indult was given in 1957, under Pope Pius XII. Notice how the online version omits the date of 1962 and doesn’t give the full details. Also notice that the indult was not automatic and that the permission had to be renewed every 5 years.


    What I believe happened is that older traditionalists were understandably mistaken and thought that this was a common practice in the pre Vatican II Church thus passing on this pseudo tradition and most traditionalists never questioned it.

    Now, if you are an R&R adherent, this shouldn’t affect you in any way, but it does affect those of us who hold the Sedevacantist position.



    I will post the photos below as they won’t upload to this post.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #51 on: December 27, 2019, 05:59:05 PM »
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    • 1 photo of 5
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #52 on: December 27, 2019, 06:00:30 PM »
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #53 on: December 27, 2019, 06:02:33 PM »
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #54 on: December 27, 2019, 06:03:58 PM »
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #55 on: December 27, 2019, 06:10:19 PM »
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    • Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?

    If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #56 on: December 27, 2019, 06:18:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 27, 2019, 06:10:19 PM
    Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?

    If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
    No Sean, I think it’s possible that somebody fudged it, possibly for bad reasons, but I think it’s probably just a mistake.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #57 on: December 27, 2019, 06:25:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 27, 2019, 06:10:19 PM
    Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?

    If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
    Also, I find it strange that the date “1957” got inserted into the online version and why they didn’t print the article in full.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #58 on: December 27, 2019, 06:47:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 27, 2019, 06:10:19 PM
    Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?

    If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
    Sean, after reviewing my post, I can see why you wrote that. Sorry for that. I want to be clear that I don’t think it is probable that it was done for nefarious reasons, only possible.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #59 on: December 27, 2019, 06:54:35 PM »
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    • On another note, has anyone else ever heard of John XXIII's jejunium gaudiosum on Christmas Eve?

    You can say a lot about Roncalli, but you can't say that he did not enjoy food.
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