Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Susanna on November 21, 2019, 08:00:35 AM
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Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:
U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.
To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252. (http://www.clsadb.com/docuмent/50c9cceb-c4c9-4c54-8a1b-b0e83288f425?backLink=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3DDay%2520after%2520thanksgiving%2520%26volume%3D_%26order%3Drelevance%26page%3D1%26take%3D20)
Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
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Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:
U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.
To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252. (http://www.clsadb.com/docuмent/50c9cceb-c4c9-4c54-8a1b-b0e83288f425?backLink=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3DDay%2520after%2520thanksgiving%2520%26volume%3D_%26order%3Drelevance%26page%3D1%26take%3D20)
Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
Even though Leo XIII touched upon some things that Americans would rather not think about in Testem benevolentiae, Pius XII seems to have been the first pope who really "got" America and Americans. For one thing, he had actually been to America, before he became Pope.
Pius IX's friendship with Jefferson Davis is also inspiring. Davis was denied the opportunity to become a Catholic in his boyhood, by his Dominican instructors.
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Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:
U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.
To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252. (http://www.clsadb.com/docuмent/50c9cceb-c4c9-4c54-8a1b-b0e83288f425?backLink=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3DDay%2520after%2520thanksgiving%2520%26volume%3D_%26order%3Drelevance%26page%3D1%26take%3D20)
Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
It’s a fact:
The same Apostolic Delegate who approved “passive membership” in the Freemasons for Americans also wanted you not to do penance on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
Signs of the times, as Mithrandylan once asked?
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It’s a fact:
The same Apostolic Delegate who approved “passive membership” in the Freemasons for Americans also wanted you not to do penance on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
Signs of the times, as Mithrandylan once asked?
Not quite. That would be a renewal of the decree of the Holy Office (May 31, 1911) in Una Scrantonen (https://books.google.com/books?id=LxasCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=Una+Scrantonen&source=bl&ots=CQ3yjjHRTx&sig=ACfU3U3VqQ0n7Rm8ObFkHh8uUVzOJOnEew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN0Yznz_vlAhXDxlkKHRcdCTQQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Una%20Scrantonen&f=false), during the reign of Pope Pius X, and even then certain conditions had to be met.
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Not quite. That would be a renewal of the decree of the Holy Office (May 31, 1911) in Una Scrantonen (https://books.google.com/books?id=LxasCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=Una+Scrantonen&source=bl&ots=CQ3yjjHRTx&sig=ACfU3U3VqQ0n7Rm8ObFkHh8uUVzOJOnEew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN0Yznz_vlAhXDxlkKHRcdCTQQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Una%20Scrantonen&f=false), during the reign of Pope Pius X, and even then certain conditions hat to be met.
:laugh1: Johnson accusing an Apostolic delegate of being a liberal/modernist when this actually goes back to St. Pius X.
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It’s a fact:
The same Apostolic Delegate who approved “passive membership” in the Freemasons for Americans also wanted you not to do penance on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
Signs of the times, as Mithrandylan once asked?
Nobody's stopping you from doing penance, but the issue is whether or not you're going to impute sin to those who decide to eat meat that day ... just like on your modesty thread. At another point, you claimed that dispensations and relaxations of law like this are invalid because they're against the common good. In that case, you really are required under pain of sin to fast on Wednesdays also, because that was the mandatory practice in the early Church. For that matter, you need to be keeping the fast all of Advent just like in Lent, since that too used to be the Church's discipline, and so the relaxation of that was clearly invalid. You should start a website to denounce all the lax Catholics who do not fast on all the weekdays of Advent like they used to in the good old days.
:facepalm:
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Not quite. That would be a renewal of the decree of the Holy Office (May 31, 1911) in Una Scrantonen (https://books.google.com/books?id=LxasCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=Una+Scrantonen&source=bl&ots=CQ3yjjHRTx&sig=ACfU3U3VqQ0n7Rm8ObFkHh8uUVzOJOnEew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN0Yznz_vlAhXDxlkKHRcdCTQQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Una%20Scrantonen&f=false), during the reign of Pope Pius X, and even then certain conditions had to be met.
Thank you for this information Susanna. I am learning to be slower with my judgments, and had never heard of this decree, for which I thank you.
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Excellent find Susanna. Thank you.
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Fortunately, I have not such important decisions to make.
Would it not be possible, with modern refrigeration, to use up the turkey on Saturday.
:facepalm:
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Fortunately, I have not such important decisions to make.
Would it not be possible, with modern refrigeration, to use up the turkey on Saturday.
:facepalm:
I wonder whether there is more to it than just "leftovers". In my family, due to extended family (nephews go to their in-laws on Thursday), we do not observe Thanksgiving until Friday. I suspect that there are many families who have similar situations.
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I wonder whether there is more to it than just "leftovers". In my family, due to extended family (nephews go to their in-laws on Thursday), we do not observe Thanksgiving until Friday. I suspect that there are many families who have similar situations.
Right. I don't think it's primarily bout eating leftover food the next day but about allowing for the entire weekend to be "festive".
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I wonder whether there is more to it than just "leftovers". In my family, due to extended family (nephews go to their in-laws on Thursday), we do not observe Thanksgiving until Friday. I suspect that there are many families who have similar situations.
Why would you need to break a Church law for a national feast, as opposed to a Catholic feast? I can see an issue if, say, the Annunciation or Christmes day happens to be Friday, but why not celebrate with a non-meat meal? I know it's a national custom/tradition. I guess for most people, including Catholics, it would be unthinkable.
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Why would you need to break a Church law for a national feast, as opposed to a Catholic feast? I can see an issue if, say, the Annunciation or Christmes day happens to be Friday, but why not celebrate with a non-meat meal? I know it's a national custom/tradition. I guess for most people, including Catholics, it would be unthinkable.
And why do you need to question other Catholics when the Pope himself allowed it?
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The first Thanksgiving in USA was Catholic (and Te Deum)
Nadir is right. Friday we should go meat less as a gift to God. (Instead of Friday, have Thanksgiving on Saturday to celebrate with family)
I never shop on Friday after Thanksgiving either. Thanksgiving should be with family and friends. Stores should be closed.
Making these little sacrifices will bring us all closer to God. I know I have do this.
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And why do you need to question other Catholics when the Pope himself allowed it?
Out of curiosity. But it was also a serious question. But just a question. I thought it reasonable to apply dispensation from Church law for Catholic feasts, but I was wondering that the same would apply to national feasts.
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The first Thanksgiving in USA was Catholic (and Te Deum)
Nadir is right. Friday we should go meat less as a gift to God. (Instead of Friday, have Thanksgiving on Saturday to celebrate with family)
I never shop on Friday after Thanksgiving either. Thanksgiving should be with family and friends. Stores should be closed.
Making these little sacrifices will bring us all closer to God. I know I have do this.
And if you would like to go meat-less on that Friday, by all means. No one is telling you you "should" follow the dispensation. However, it is not wrong/sinful for other Catholics who do eat meat because of the dispensation and their individual circuмstances.
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Specific fasting days are positive law. The Pope decided to give a dispensation for this particular one to accomodate cultural customs. I don't understand why this is a discussion, or what is wrong with this.
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Dost thou suggest we dishonor the sacrificial turkey by letting his meat to go to waste?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhumorinamerica.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F11%2Ffirstthanksgivingbig.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
The Puritans had good intentions...
They fed the poor, invincibly ignorant Indians.
And they all had Implicit Baptism of Desire (IBOD), so they're probably in Heaven... don't you think :confused:
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Seems questionable that the Puritan Thanksgiving including turkey.
Edward Winslow on the first Thanksgiving feast:
“Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits of our labor. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.”
I don't celebrate Thanksgiving the way others do. I do take advantage of the 4 day weekend to do something fun with my immediate family. And I like the "American Thanksgiving" meal so some years we go to a restaurant to enjoy it. Some years we go on vacation. It's a nice way to mark the beginning of our Catholic holiday season (Advent, Immaculate Conception, Christmas). I don't get together with my Protestant/Americanist family to celebrate Turkey Day. And I most certainly eat any meat I want on Black Friday, leftovers or not. Furthermore, I don't think it's sacrilege for anyone to work on that day. That's ridiculous to argue against it. People have a right to earn a living without judgment.
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Seems questionable that the Puritan Thanksgiving including turkey.
I don't celebrate Thanksgiving the way others do. I do take advantage of the 4 day weekend to do something fun with my immediate family. And I like the "American Thanksgiving" meal so some years we go to a restaurant to enjoy it. Some years we go on vacation. It's a nice way to mark the beginning of our Catholic holiday season (Advent, Immaculate Conception, Christmas). I don't get together with my Protestant/Americanist family to celebrate Turkey Day. And I most certainly eat any meat I want on Black Friday, leftovers or not. Furthermore, I don't think it's sacrilege for anyone to work on that day. That's ridiculous to argue against it. People have a right to earn a living without judgment.
I work in retail currently so I'll have to work thanksgiving night.
I don't think its sacrilege to work per se, its not a Holy Day, but I do think it says something about American society that we can't even set apart a whole day to give thanks, like we can't even wait till the *next* day to go on a shopping spree
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I was planning on smoking a turkey for Thanksgiving, as I've done the past several years. But this thread, and a comment from a Catholic friend of mine who said cooking a turkey is "too Protestant," got me thinking that maybe I should try this, Smoked Beef Clod!
https://youtu.be/TicZgzy3YS4
Either way, like in years past, I'll more than likely abstain from meat the following Friday. Whether it be turkey or beef, it'll be fine in the fridge one additional day.
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Looks delicious!
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The folks at Tradition In Action have a bias against the Puritan feast day considering the history when, there was an antiCatholic movement to ban Christmas and make Thanksgiving the main national holiday.
The humble turkey was made their symbol, so on Thanksgiving, The Catholic meal is anything but Turkey.
In fact, seafood would be more historically representative of the docuмented initial Spanish Catholic feasts of thanksgiving in our country.
TIA calls the non turkey feast, “The Catholic Battle-plate”.
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Nobody's stopping you from doing penance, but the issue is whether or not you're going to impute sin to those who decide to eat meat that day ... just like on your modesty thread. At another point, you claimed that dispensations and relaxations of law like this are invalid because they're against the common good. In that case, you really are required under pain of sin to fast on Wednesdays also, because that was the mandatory practice in the early Church. For that matter, you need to be keeping the fast all of Advent just like in Lent, since that too used to be the Church's discipline, and so the relaxation of that was clearly invalid. You should start a website to denounce all the lax Catholics who do not fast on all the weekdays of Advent like they used to in the good old days.
:facepalm:
Re: fasting on Wednesdays
You may find it interesting that in Irish, Friday is Dé hAoine(day of the fast) and Wednesday is Dé Céadaoin(the day of the first fast).
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Seems questionable that the Puritan Thanksgiving including turkey.
I don't celebrate Thanksgiving the way others do. I do take advantage of the 4 day weekend to do something fun with my immediate family. And I like the "American Thanksgiving" meal so some years we go to a restaurant to enjoy it. Some years we go on vacation. It's a nice way to mark the beginning of our Catholic holiday season (Advent, Immaculate Conception, Christmas). I don't get together with my Protestant/Americanist family to celebrate Turkey Day. And I most certainly eat any meat I want on Black Friday, leftovers or not. Furthermore, I don't think it's sacrilege for anyone to work on that day. That's ridiculous to argue against it. People have a right to earn a living without judgment.
In our home, we do indeed have the turkey --- it's inexpensive, tasty, nutritious protein and lends itself to all kinds of leftovers (they basically give turkeys away at some groceries as a loss leader, to get you in the store, that's how I got a whole bird this year) --- but we also reflect on the Catholic origins of European settlement in the New World (Santa Fe, San Miguel de Gualdape, St Augustine), the conversion of the natives (including the story of Venerable Mary of Agreda and the Jumano people), and the fact that there was a Catholic presence in North America many years before the arrival of the Puritan cult.
in other words, we let the descendants of the Puritan fanatics give us free food, and then we wrap the whole thing up in full-bore traditional Catholicism. Makes the turkey taste much better.
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Dost thou suggest we dishonor the sacrificial turkey by letting his meat to go to waste?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhumorinamerica.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F11%2Ffirstthanksgivingbig.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
The Puritans had good intentions...
They fed the poor, invincibly ignorant Indians.
And they all had Implicit Baptism of Desire (IBOD), so they're probably in Heaven... don't you think :confused:
I think it was more the case that the Indians helped out the Puritans, who weren't that bright when it came to fending for themselves in the new world.
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I sometimes eat turkey, use the American indult, if it is a matter of charity, ie., My elderly mother makes me a turkey sandwich. If not, I refrain from meat as usual.
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I think it was more the case that the Indians helped out the Puritans, who weren't that bright when it came to fending for themselves in the new world.
I think your right Meg... and not one of them got to Heaven via Implicit Baptism of Desire (IBOD).
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Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:
U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.
To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252. (http://www.clsadb.com/docuмent/50c9cceb-c4c9-4c54-8a1b-b0e83288f425?backLink=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3DDay%2520after%2520thanksgiving%2520%26volume%3D_%26order%3Drelevance%26page%3D1%26take%3D20)
Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
I’m not so convinced about this. Can you please direct me to an actual book that has this reference? I have never been able to locate it. Also, who’s to say which Ordinaries actually allowed the dispensation. Another issue is that one would certainly have to appeal to epikeia for it to be even considered lawful.
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Bump....anyone have a real reference for this? I have yet to see one.
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For years I’ve looked in Bouscaren, Prummer, and other texts, nothing.
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For years I’ve looked in Bouscaren, Prummer, and other texts, nothing.
I looked again at Jone and Woywod, still nothing. Does anyone have a reliable source for this “turkey indult”?
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My last post on this unless new information comes to fruition. I call it hearsay, there is absolutely no proof, that I am aware of, that there was an indult for the Friday after Thanksgiving. The day after Thanksgiving is not the civil holiday. I have seen proof for a Fourth of July indult, but never for Thanksgiving.
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QVD: I'm not sure what you need here, but the links provided in the OP come from here:
http://www.clsadb.com/search/?q=Thanksgiving&volume=_&order=relevance&page=4&take=20
#63 provides the reference book, etc.
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Thanks Vermont.....I will check it out.
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My last post on this unless new information comes to fruition. I call it hearsay, there is absolutely no proof, that I am aware of, that there was an indult for the Friday after Thanksgiving. The day after Thanksgiving is not the civil holiday. I have seen proof for a Fourth of July indult, but never for Thanksgiving.
Could this newChurch tradition be similar in legal standing to Paul VI’s cremation indult?
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While I don't dispute that the Pope obviously has the authority to dispense from Friday abstinence if he wants to, it seems like all too often whenever penance actually becomes penitential, people want a dispensation from it.
In fairness though, I don't know whether anyone actually requested the Thanksgiving Friday Indult, or if the Pope granted it without being asked.
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… it seems like all too often whenever penance actually becomes penitential, people want a dispensation from it.
This question comes up every year, with plenty of verification that a dispensation was granted. Whether that dispensation is applicable to traditionalists today (since His Holiness Pius XII is not the current pontiff) may be another question.
It is a source of bemusement as to why there is always so much hand wringing over this. If one has doubts simply leave the turkey in the refrigerator until Saturday, it seems simple enough. That is hardly penitential when one can have lobster, crab cakes, salmon (I'll eat salmon over turkey any day), clam chowder, fish and chips, or made from scratch mac & cheese (made with a very sharp cheddar).
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Even if the indult was granted in the 1950s, there are many questions - 1) Do you have to do a different penance in place of not eating meat? I doubt that the penance for Fridays was totally dispensed, only allowed to change. Much like the post-V2 "Friday meat" rule was not dispensed (although most Catholics don't know this), it was only allowed to be replaced by a penance of equal weight. Current church law is that if you do not do a penance on Fridays, it is a mortal sin. 2) How does anyone know that this 1950s law is still in effect? With all the changes in the last 70 years, I find it hard to believe that this indult wasn't changed somehow.
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This question comes up every year, with plenty of verification that a dispensation was granted. Whether that dispensation is applicable to traditionalists today (since His Holiness Pius XII is not the current pontiff) may be another question.
It is a source of bemusement as to why there is always so much hand wringing over this.
I think I was probably one of the first to publicly question -then doubt- the existence of this indult (for about the last 4-5 years), until the link in the OP was shown to me on another forum.
After that, I no longer question its existence, and am not sure why QVD continued to.
That said, whether or not the indult was a prudent dispensation is certainly open to question, and of course people will disagree here.
Personally, I found it unnecessary and worldly, but...
I guess a question which I am still unclear on is whether the indult was limited to turkey, or is all meat permissible (eg., what about American families who have ham or other meats? Can they have that on Friday too?)?
In any case, I think for most trads, an indult for eating meat on a Friday following a merely civil holiday would leave one feeling a bit uneasy (not because there would be sin, but because of the worldly motives which inspired the indult).
It seems the indult was part of a larger trend of worldly American laxist disciplinary norms (eg., the pre-conciliar trad world mocked American norms for Lent, where most of the rest of the world practiced daily fast and abstinence, but Americans only fast and partial abstinence).
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In addition, I haven't heard anyone comment on the fact that the dispensation clearly says the authority is given to the diocesan Ordinary to dispense his subjects from the abstinence. Does anyone know if every Ordinary in the US across the board issued the dispensation? If your local Ordinary did not exercise that option than the faithful in that diocese are still bound to abstain as far as I know.
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In any case, I think for most trads, an indult for eating meat on a Friday following a merely civil holiday would leave one feeling a bit uneasy (not because there would be sin, but because of the worldly motives which inspired the indult).
It seems the indult was part of a larger trend of worldly American laxist disciplinary norms (eg., the pre-conciliar trad world mocked American norms for Lent, where most of the rest of the world practiced daily fast and abstinence, but Americans only fast and partial abstinence).
Yes, it does seem like the indult had worldly motives. The Federal Government put Thanksgiving on a Thursday and not on a Friday so that Catholics can eat the meat, yet some Catholics wanted more. I wonder what group of Catholics, that had such a love for turkey so much that they could no longer wait one day to eat it again, that they had to ask the bishops for an indult.
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Yes, it does seem like the indult had worldly motives. The Federal Government put Thanksgiving on a Thursday and not on a Friday so that Catholics can eat the meat, yet some Catholics wanted more. I wonder what group of Catholics, that had such a love for turkey so much that they could no longer wait one day to eat it again, that they had to ask the bishops for an indult.
It's not about the meat, but rather about allowing for the entire weekend to be festive, rather than immediately tempering it with a penitential day. Everybody's making too big a deal about this.
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It's not about the meat, but rather about allowing for the entire weekend to be festive, rather than immediately tempering it with a penitential day. Everybody's making too big a deal about this.
Sure, but if Mr. G is correct that the Masonic US government really scheduled the civil holiday on Thursday so Catholics could participate, then it means that even they had an expectation that the holiday was a one-day event, and that on Friday Catholics would not eat meat.
And if secular America later transformed Thanksgiving into a 4-day bacchanalia (despite having more food/menu items than anywhere else in the world), it would seem the Catholic hierarchy was following their lead.
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^--- Then, if you're living in the U.S. and consider yourself to be TradTM, you've got a lot more problems than a simple one-day-out-of-the-year indult.
Remedy: Move out of the U.S. to a confessional state.
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I think I was probably one of the first to publicly question -then doubt- the existence of this indult (for about the last 4-5 years), until the link in the OP was shown to me on another forum.
After that, I no longer question its existence, and am not sure why QVD continued to.
That said, whether or not the indult was a prudent dispensation is certainly open to question, and of course people will disagree here.
Personally, I found it unnecessary and worldly, but...
I guess a question which I am still unclear on is whether the indult was limited to turkey, or is all meat permissible (eg., what about American families who have ham or other meats? Can they have that on Friday too?)?
In any case, I think for most trads, an indult for eating meat on a Friday following a merely civil holiday would leave one feeling a bit uneasy (not because there would be sin, but because of the worldly motives which inspired the indult).
It seems the indult was part of a larger trend of worldly American laxist disciplinary norms (eg., the pre-conciliar trad world mocked American norms for Lent, where most of the rest of the world practiced daily fast and abstinence, but Americans only fast and partial abstinence).
Yes, and I, for one, appreciated that you did do that. I do think the OP was remiss in not including the information that is found as part of the search that I linked above, so it is clear where the information originally came from....so I can understand why QVD was looking for more.
As for turkey vs ham, I would suspect it was all meat given it says abstinence, not just abstinence from turkey. For me, I had an opportunity to have bacon that morning at the hotel we stayed at, but refrained since it had nothing to do with Thanksgiving. However, I did have turkey at the Thanksgiving dinner I shared with my family.
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Sure, but if Mr. G is correct that the Masonic US government really scheduled the civil holiday on Thursday so Catholics could participate, then it means that even they had an expectation that the holiday was a one-day event, and that on Friday Catholics would not eat meat.
And if secular America later transformed Thanksgiving into a 4-day bacchanalia (despite having more food/menu items than anywhere else in the world), it would seem the Catholic hierarchy was following their lead.
Wait, why would the masonic government want to help Catholics participate? Maybe Mr G could provide support for that?
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Wait, why would the masonic government want to help Catholics participate? Maybe Mr G could provide support for that?
But look what it has morphed into?
With Black Friday, it is 4 days of gluttony and materialism.
The jews key their entire annual sales forecast on their Black Friday sales revenue.
And most Catholics participate in the extended pagan weekend with revelry.
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But look what it has morphed into?
With Black Friday, it is 4 days of gluttony and materialism.
The jews key their entire annual sales forecast on their Black Friday sales revenue.
And most Catholics participate in the extended pagan weekend with revelry.
True, but I question how many "Catholics" really do participate to this extent. Perhaps many who identify as Catholic, but not actually Catholic.
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True, but I question how many "Catholics" really do participate to this extent. Perhaps many who identify as Catholic, but not actually Catholic.
Of course, they've lost their Catholic bearings.
And who is immediately responsible for that?
It would have to be the bishops, whose duty is to remind the flock how to think and act like Catholics.
But, as the old saying goes, the floor of Hell is tiled with apostate Catholic bishops.
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I finally received Volume 5 of Canon Law Digest by Bouscaren. I only had volumes 1 through 4 in my library as volume 5 didn’t seem to me to be too necessary since it mostly contained the acts of John XXIII 1958-1962.
For many years I questioned the validity of the so called “turkey indult” and never participated in it. Firstly, I have never found any proof of it’s existence until this thread supposedly gave the evidence. Secondly, I found it strange that Pope Pius XII would have granted such an indult since the national holiday is always on the fourth Thursday of November and not on the Friday. Ladislaus uses the argument “ It's not about the meat, but rather about allowing for the entire weekend to be festive, rather than immediately tempering it with a penitential day.” This seems to be a fair argument in favor of the indult, but I have never seen a similar case when the Church acted this way. If anyone has an example, please let me know. Thirdly, the argument that the indult was given due to lack of refrigeration or to not allow the meat to spoil, obviously doesn’t hold water.
It is my contention that this indult was given in 1962 under John XXIII (as you can see from the photo below) and that the online “proof” was falsified, possibly nefariously, to make one believe that the indult was given in 1957, under Pope Pius XII. Notice how the online version omits the date of 1962 and doesn’t give the full details. Also notice that the indult was not automatic and that the permission had to be renewed every 5 years.
What I believe happened is that older traditionalists were understandably mistaken and thought that this was a common practice in the pre Vatican II Church thus passing on this pseudo tradition and most traditionalists never questioned it.
Now, if you are an R&R adherent, this shouldn’t affect you in any way, but it does affect those of us who hold the Sedevacantist position.
I will post the photos below as they won’t upload to this post.
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1 photo of 5
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2
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3
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4 and 5
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Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?
If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
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Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?
If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
No Sean, I think it’s possible that somebody fudged it, possibly for bad reasons, but I think it’s probably just a mistake.
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Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?
If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
Also, I find it strange that the date “1957” got inserted into the online version and why they didn’t print the article in full.
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Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting someone created a website in order to upload a doctored version of the CLD, to fabricate in 1957 the esiatence of the turkey indult?
If so, could you please restate what you believe to be the evidence to support this conclusion?
Sean, after reviewing my post, I can see why you wrote that. Sorry for that. I want to be clear that I don’t think it is probable that it was done for nefarious reasons, only possible.
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On another note, has anyone else ever heard of John XXIII's jejunium gaudiosum on Christmas Eve?
You can say a lot about Roncalli, but you can't say that he did not enjoy food.
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On another note, has anyone else ever heard of John XXIII's jejunium gaudiosum on Christmas Eve?
You can say a lot about Roncalli, but you can't say that he did not enjoy food.
😂😂😂
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1957 is five years before 1962, and this was one of the quinquennial faculties granted every five years, so there's no reason to think that 1962 is to be preferred to 1957.
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1957 is five years before 1962, and this was one of the quinquennial faculties granted every five years, so there's no reason to think that 1962 is to be preferred to 1957.
Read the text in the photos. The indult was granted in 1962 not 1957.
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Hmmm....QvD. Thanks for going to actual sources. It does appear to be a 1962 (post Pius XII) dispensation. Even if it weren't (and was dispensed by Pius XII), it is interesting to see that it was for a five year period anyway. There probably would be question whether this could be considered still in force because of that.
I think it would be interesting to get a traditional priest to review what you found just in case there is something we are missing. It still seems strange to me why traditional priests would push a turkey indult if there wasn't actually one. Priests I have come in contact with are exceptionally meticulous, so I still find it hard to believe that they got this one wrong.
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1 photo of 5
The pic shows that this book covers the years 1958-1962, so it does not seem to be an appropriate source:
We need the book covering 1957 (which is what the online source provides), in order to see if there is a discrepancy.
That a turkey indult appears in 1962 does not disprove its prior existence in 1957.
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The pic shows that this book covers the years 1958-1962, so it does not seem to be an appropriate source:
We need the book covering 1957 (which is what the online source provides), in order to see if there is a discrepancy.
That a turkey indult appears in 1962 does not disprove its prior existence in 1957.
Is it possible to repeat dispensations? In other words, could Pius XII have dispensed during his pontificate AND the next pope include it again? Maybe that's standard operating procedure?
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Is it possible to repeat dispensations? In other words, could Pius XII have dispensed during his pontificate AND the next pope include it again? Maybe that's standard operating procedure?
Yes. That was ElAsuente’s point above. And I would not have questioned the fact of it, until QVD suggested that the online citation might have been doctored. But now that I notice QVD’s source only covers 1958-1962 (unless there is some additional reason to question the legitimacy of the online source), EA is certainly correct.
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The pic shows that this book covers the years 1958-1962, so it does not seem to be an appropriate source:
We need the book covering 1957 (which is what the online source provides), in order to see if there is a discrepancy.
That a turkey indult appears in 1962 does not disprove its prior existence in 1957.
Sean, the online reference says it was taken from Volume 5, which is the volume I just purchased. I’ve looked in Volume 4, which covers 1953-1957, and it has nothing about the supposed “turkey indult”.
Frankly, for R&R adherents, such as yourself, this really is a non-issue since the Vatican II magisterium has quasi-abrogated the Friday abstinence, so I suppose their conscience is clear. It does however pose a problem for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position since it seems to be enacted four years after the death of Pope Pius XII. Also, even if the indult was authorized under Pius XII, one would have to appeal to epikeia in order to partake in it.
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Is it possible to repeat dispensations? In other words, could Pius XII have dispensed during his pontificate AND the next pope include it again? Maybe that's standard operating procedure?
Vermont, please see my post to Sean.
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It is important to note that no blanket dispensation was given. Rather, local ordinaries were given the faculty to dispense the required abstinence, so it was up to each individual bishop for his own diocese. He could dispense but did not have to.
This faculty was one of many quinquennial faculties granted to bishops by the Holy See. As the name suggests, such faculties has to be given every five years. https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/religion-past-and-present/quinquennial-faculties-SIM_024777 (https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/religion-past-and-present/quinquennial-faculties-SIM_024777)
The power to dispense with abstinence in the newest code of canon law resides with the bishop or the parish priest even.
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It is important to note that no blanket dispensation was given. Rather, local ordinaries were given the faculty to dispense the required abstinence, so it was up to each individual bishop for his own diocese. He could dispense but did not have to.
This faculty was one of many quinquennial faculties granted to bishops by the Holy See. As the name suggests, such faculties has to be given every five years. https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/religion-past-and-present/quinquennial-faculties-SIM_024777 (https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/religion-past-and-present/quinquennial-faculties-SIM_024777)
The power to dispense with abstinence in the newest code of canon law resides with the bishop or the parish priest even.
What I’m looking for is proof that it was given under pope Pius XII. I have never found any. The earliest date is 1962, 4 years after Pope Pius XII died.
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Sean, the online reference says it was taken from Volume 5, which is the volume I just purchased. I’ve looked in Volume 4, which covers 1953-1957, and it has nothing about the supposed “turkey indult”.
Frankly, for R&R adherents, such as yourself, this really is a non-issue since the Vatican II magisterium has quasi-abrogated the Friday abstinence, so I suppose their conscience is clear. It does however pose a problem for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position since it seems to be enacted four years after the death of Pope Pius XII. Also, even if the indult was authorized under Pius XII, one would have to appeal to epikeia in order to partake in it.
Thanks. Looks like I will have to inform my husband of this for next year.
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Thanks. Looks like I will have to inform my husband of this for next year.
Sorry V, don’t tell him I did it. 😀
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Never ate meat the Friday after Thanksgiving my whole life.
Just found out about this indult a few years ago.
Still don't eat meat the Friday after Thanksgiving.
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Never ate meat the Friday after Thanksgiving my whole life.
Just found out about this indult a few years ago.
Still don't eat meat the Friday after Thanksgiving.
Same here.
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Sean, the online reference says it was taken from Volume 5, which is the volume I just purchased. I’ve looked in Volume 4, which covers 1953-1957, and it has nothing about the supposed “turkey indult”.
Frankly, for R&R adherents, such as yourself, this really is a non-issue since the Vatican II magisterium has quasi-abrogated the Friday abstinence, so I suppose their conscience is clear. It does however pose a problem for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position since it seems to be enacted four years after the death of Pope Pius XII. Also, even if the indult was authorized under Pius XII, one would have to appeal to epikeia in order to partake in it.
I didn't eat meat this year. I'm not a Sedevacantist, but I wasn't sure if the indult was real, and even if it is, I didn't know if it applied to Byzantine Catholics (I'm Ukrainian Rite.) Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
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I didn't eat meat this year. I'm not a Sedevacantist, but I wasn't sure if the indult was real, and even if it is, I didn't know if it applied to Byzantine Catholics (I'm Ukrainian Rite.) Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
I did not ask the eparchy myself, but I did talk with the cantor (and de facto parish leader), and he was not familiar with it from the eparchy.
Refugees from the roman rite attending an eastern parish are bound by the roman rite rules, of course, unless they change rites, which is a process.
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Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
The Latin Rite still obligates meatless fridays, except it allows one to substitute the penance for another of equal weight. Certainly this is big liberalization but the penance still remains. It is said that the friday penance is of Apostolic origin so that's why both (and I think all) rites have it. I doubt that the Church/pope is allowed to get rid of it, being it is of Apostolic (possibly Divine?) origin.
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The Latin Rite still obligates meatless fridays, except it allows one to substitute the penance for another of equal weight. Certainly this is big liberalization but the penance still remains. It is said that the friday penance is of Apostolic origin so that's why both (and I think all) rites have it. I doubt that the Church/pope is allowed to get rid of it, being it is of Apostolic (possibly Divine?) origin.
I’m certain you’re not right on this. I believe that in all Spanish speaking countries they do not abstain from meat on Fridays. If memory serves me, this dispensation was granted by Pope Saint Pius V after the victory of Lepanto or possibly for Spanish help during the Crusades.
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I’m certain you’re not right on this. I believe that in all Spanish speaking countries they do not abstain from meat on Fridays. If memory serves me, this dispensation was granted by Pope Saint Pius V after the victory of Lepanto or possibly for Spanish help during the Crusades.
Both, according to TIME magazine, 1951: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,815001,00.html
It was originally given to Spain in 1089 for help with the Crusades, then expanded to all Spanish countries by St. Pius V after Lepanto.
But the rules given by Spain's Bishops Conference (1986) has abstinence on Fridays in Lent, and some penance on other Fridays.
https://conferenciaepiscopal.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017_El_modo_de_observar_el_ayuno_y_la_abstinencia.pdf
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://conferenciaepiscopal.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017_El_modo_de_observar_el_ayuno_y_la_abstinencia.pdf
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Given the terms of what was granted, on what basis can it be argued that abstinence on the Friday after Thanksgiving is dispensed today?
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Given the terms of what was granted, on what basis can it be argued that abstinence on the Friday after Thanksgiving is dispensed today?
For those who hold the sedevacantist position, one would have to appeal to epikeia, which frankly I find a bit of a stretch.
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For those who hold the sedevacantist position, one would have to appeal to epikeia, which frankly I find a bit of a stretch.
Sorry, I should have added: Providing that it could be proven that the indult was established under Pope Pius XII or before.
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Sure wish there was a certain Father Collins here to speak to about these findings. :'(
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Sure wish there was a certain Father Collins here to speak to about these findings. :'(
How true!
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I didn't eat meat this year. I'm not a Sedevacantist, but I wasn't sure if the indult was real, and even if it is, I didn't know if it applied to Byzantine Catholics (I'm Ukrainian Rite.) Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
Ages ago I spent time in a Eastern Catholic monastery, the priest though having faculties for both East and Trad West. I found the fasting/abstinence to be of greater severity, not that this is a bad thing.
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I’m certain you’re not right on this. ...this dispensation was granted ...
A dispensation necessarily implies a general rule, which is friday penance, which is a universal church discipline from Apostolic times. The friday penance NORMALLY is abstinence from meat, but other penances (or dispensations) allow for a substitution. Yet, the general rule of friday penance still remains.
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A dispensation necessarily implies a general rule, which is friday penance, which is a universal church discipline from Apostolic times. The friday penance NORMALLY is abstinence from meat, but other penances (or dispensations) allow for a substitution. Yet, the general rule of friday penance still remains.
I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make.
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I did not ask the eparchy myself, but I did talk with the cantor (and de facto parish leader), and he was not familiar with it from the eparchy.
Refugees from the roman rite attending an eastern parish are bound by the roman rite rules, of course, unless they change rites, which is a process.
I started as a Protestant and converted directly into the Byzantine rite, so I’m almost certain I’m bound by Byzantine rules unless there’s something obscure related to ancestry. My moms parents were Roman rite Catholics and mom May have been baptized one before becoming Protestant at a super young age. I was baptized in a Protestant “church”
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Ages ago I spent time in a Eastern Catholic monastery, the priest though having faculties for both East and Trad West. I found the fasting/abstinence to be of greater severity, not that this is a bad thing.
In the Ukrainian rite specifically the rules have been somewhat laxened post Vatican ii though still not as much as in the current latin rite. I believe some of the other eastern rites may follow the Eastern Orthodox equivalents
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Sorry, I should have added: Providing that it could be proven that the indult was established under Pope Pius XII or before.
Some, though not many, sedevacantists hold that John XXIII was legit.
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Some, though not many, sedevacantists hold that John XXIII was legit.
Yes, of course, I didn’t want to get into too many nuances. Some really bizarre sedevacantists even go back to a pope before Saint Thomas Aquinas’ time. Personally, I hold that John XXIII was not a true pope, but if a future pope were to declare that he actually was a true pope, I would accept his decision without reservation.
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I started as a Protestant and converted directly into the Byzantine rite, so I’m almost certain I’m bound by Byzantine rules unless there’s something obscure related to ancestry. My moms parents were Roman rite Catholics and mom May have been baptized one before becoming Protestant at a super young age. I was baptized in a Protestant “church”
1983 Code canons #111-112 cover this, but their application has some quirks.
For adult converts, if you're baptized unconditionally in the Church after age 14, you can choose the rite you want to belong to, which is normally indicated by choosing to be baptized in that rite.
But if your Protestant baptism was considered valid, I would at some point check with a canonist. Rite doesn't matter for attending Mass or Divine Liturgy, but it impacts marriage or ordination.
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1983 Code canons #111-112 cover this, but their application has some quirks.
For adult converts, if you're baptized unconditionally in the Church after age 14, you can choose the rite you want to belong to, which is normally indicated by choosing to be baptized in that rite.
But if your Protestant baptism was considered valid, I would at some point check with a canonist. Rite doesn't matter for attending Mass or Divine Liturgy, but it impacts marriage or ordination.
Yeah it was accepted in my parish and by the bishop (Paul Chomnycky). I've never been a member of the Roman Rite that I know of. If I'm missing anything here please let me know.
I wasn't given a conditional baptism. I will say I at one point double checked on this with an SSPX priest and while he didn't want to answer specifically about my specific situation without seeing docuмentation, what he said seemed to suggest that my baptism would've been valid as well. I'll admit that the validity of Protestant baptism is something that confuses me, but it seems like the Church has long accepted them as valid and so I submit to that ruling, of course.
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Yeah it was accepted in my parish and by the bishop (Paul Chomnycky). I've never been a member of the Roman Rite that I know of. If I'm missing anything here please let me know.
I don't want to create a scruple, but if your mother was baptized Catholic, even if fallen away, you might follow her rite by default. The modern Church complicates this by treating fallen away Catholics as non-Catholics in many ways, though.
Regarding baptisms, the traditional view was that if the matter (water) and form (Trinitarian formula) were followed, it's valid, and conditional baptisms were given when one or the other was in doubt. Since - in emergencies - even a non-believer or atheist can validly administer baptism, the "intention" needed for baptism is very minimal. (Then the modern Church comes along and considers a Mormon baptism invalid because Mormons, being non-Trinitarian, do not mean the same thing by the words of the Trinitarian formula.)
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An article that corroborates my argument against the “turkey indult”.
https://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2020/11/does-turkey-indult-exist.html
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I say "get a refrigerator and join the 20th century -- maybe the 21st century if you're really feeling ambitious."
I never took advantage of the "turkey indult" and we purposely make enough food to last many meals. So it's not like we don't have leftovers -- we have SUPER quantities of leftovers. Even with my big family, when we make a turkey (and about 4-5 sides) it lasts several meals.
Cooked food (turkey, gravy, potatoes, vegetables, stuffing, pumpkin pie, etc.) is NOT going to go bad after 2 or 3 days in the fridge. Trust me, I speak from experience: leftovers are good for up to a week unless your fridge is set too warm or something.
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You know, my personal take on Thanksgiving is why celebrate it?
I'm probably going to be shot down here, but think: it's really a Protestant holiday to gorge and commit gluttony; the truly Catholic 1st Thanksgiving was August 15, which was the day that the Mass was celebrated in Florida for the first time in the United States in the 1500's. (WAY before those heretic Pilgrims came over)
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You know, my personal take on Thanksgiving is why celebrate it?
I'm probably going to be shot down here, but think: it's really a Protestant holiday to gorge and commit gluttony; the truly Catholic 1st Thanksgiving was August 15, which was the day that the Mass was celebrated in Florida for the first time in the United States in the 1500's. (WAY before those heretic Pilgrims came over)
1. It's not a protestant holiday. A national holiday, yes, of a nation that was founded by protestants. But I see nothing in "Thanksgiving" which teaches salvation by Faith alone, sola scriptura, anti-statues, or any other protestant error. That's like saying cookies baked by protestants are "protestant cookies" and to-be-avoided. Cookies can't be protestant OR Catholic. After all, they can't go to hell OR heaven, nor will they be judged.
2. There is nothing inherent in the holiday that you commit the sin of gluttony. Adults in control of themselves should be able to take a proper portion of food so that they CAN still walk/move after the meal.
That's like saying the average restaurant or bar's "happy hour" is about getting drunk. Actually, no it's not. A few might get drunk. But the VAST MAJORITY are just having a drink after work -- most Happy Hour patrons very much DO NOT intend to get too tipsy. It's 5 PM, not the middle of the night.
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This "turkey indult" business comes back every year like a bad penny.
There's a simple solution. Unless your gravy or stuffing has bits of meat in it (giblets, etc.), just have that with plant-based "meats". I always keep a pack of Sweet Earth plant "meat" to make sandwiches on Fridays, and I will just use the "ham" I have in the refrigerator tomorrow, with which I would otherwise normally make a sandwich. Heinz turkey gravy doesn't have visible meat (reminded here of how Jews sometimes regard Chinese food as "safe treyf" because the pork is so finely chopped) and Stove Top Stuffing doesn't have meat at all. Cranberry sauce and pumpkin pie is meatless by definition. (I got Patti Labelle's sweet potato pie at Walmart, it was on sale.)
Anyone in a country where food is hard to come by, would just laugh at us for being such wimps and insisting that we "have to have" this food or that one. (And there is hunger in this country too.)
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There is not one shred of evidence, that I’m aware of, that there was ever a “Turkey Indult” given under Pope Pius XII. There is evidence that it was given, under certain circuмstances, under John XXIII.
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A few years ago, the Shill posted this from the Canon Law Society (online) on Mithrandylan's forum:
U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957. (http://www.clsadb.com/docuмent/50c9cceb-c4c9-4c54-8a1b-b0e83288f425?backLink=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3DDay%20after%20thanksgiving%20%26volume%3D_%26order%3Drelevance%26page%3D1%26take%3D20)
To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252. (http://www.clsadb.com/docuмent/50c9cceb-c4c9-4c54-8a1b-b0e83288f425?backLink=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fq%3DDay%20after%20thanksgiving%20%26volume%3D_%26order%3Drelevance%26page%3D1%26take%3D20)
http://www.thetradforum.com//index.php?topic=608.90
This was authorization for a Turkey Indult under Pius XII.
However, Mithrandylan added this pertinent commentary afterwards:
"I would certainly accept, as useful and instructive historical record, such evidence. Its utility would be limited, I think, only to the diocese in question.
ETA: the reason I say the utility would be limited to that diocese is because of earlier remarks which noted that if there was no general indult and if it was simply the prerogative of singular bishops to dispense or not, the only argument in favor of a dispensation today would be the argument from custom. The argument from custom is that if it can be shown that a particular territory observed a particular practice for forty years, that practice has the force of law. So, if the Diocese of Somewhere dispensed from the law for forty years, then in the diocese of Somewhere it would really be the case that the law does not bind. But it would only be the case in the Diocese of Somewhere; people in the Diocese of Anotherplace can't look at the Diocese of Somewhere, see what customs they have, and treat them as having the force of law for themselves."
http://www.thetradforum.com//index.php?topic=608.110
And a bit later: "The most recent evidence presented was that bishops could dispense, not that they did dispense, nor that they would dispense."
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This was my post #50 in this thread:
I finally received Volume 5 of Canon Law Digest by Bouscaren. I only had volumes 1 through 4 in my library as volume 5 didn’t seem to me to be too necessary since it mostly contained the acts of John XXIII 1958-1962.
For many years I questioned the validity of the so called “turkey indult” and never participated in it. Firstly, I have never found any proof of it’s existence until this thread supposedly gave the evidence. Secondly, I found it strange that Pope Pius XII would have granted such an indult since the national holiday is always on the fourth Thursday of November and not on the Friday. Ladislaus uses the argument “ It's not about the meat, but rather about allowing for the entire weekend to be festive, rather than immediately tempering it with a penitential day.” This seems to be a fair argument in favor of the indult, but I have never seen a similar case when the Church acted this way. If anyone has an example, please let me know. Thirdly, the argument that the indult was given due to lack of refrigeration or to not allow the meat to spoil, obviously doesn’t hold water.
It is my contention that this indult was given in 1962 under John XXIII (as you can see from the photo below) and that the online “proof” was falsified, possibly nefariously, to make one believe that the indult was given in 1957, under Pope Pius XII. Notice how the online version omits the date of 1962 and doesn’t give the full details. Also notice that the indult was not automatic and that the permission had to be renewed every 5 years.
What I believe happened is that older traditionalists were understandably mistaken and thought that this was a common practice in the pre Vatican II Church thus passing on this pseudo tradition and most traditionalists never questioned it.
Now, if you are an R&R adherent, this shouldn’t affect you in any way, but it does affect those of us who hold the Sedevacantist position.
I will post the photos below as they won’t upload to this post.
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(https://i.imgur.com/rxf7x08.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/8OdQnmK.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/ZoVK2SC.jpg)
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Who would have to dispense us?
Vll eats meat every Friday
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Who would have to dispense us?
Vll eats meat every Friday
Absolutely, this “indult” seems to affect only those of us who hold the sedevacantist position.
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Who would have to dispense us?
Vll eats meat every Friday
True
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Absolutely, this “indult” seems to affect only those of us who hold the sedevacantist position.
The (sede) priest at one of the chapels I assist at mentioned this indult last Sunday.
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Q&A from the December 1962 and February 1963 editions of Homiletic and Pastoral Review indicating that at that point a dispensation from abstinence was diocese by diocese:
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The (sede) priest at one of the chapels I assist at mentioned this indult last Sunday.
Many aren’t aware of the details.
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Q&A from the December 1962 and February 1963 editions of Homiletic and Pastoral Review indicating that at that point a dispensation from abstinence was diocese by diocese:
Thanks for this post, Emile. As I’ve said, this was an innovation under John XXIII and I believe that many traditional “sede” clergy are confused or mistaken about the timing.
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Thanks for this post, Emile. As I’ve said, this was an innovation under John XXIII and I believe that many traditional “sede” clergy are confused or mistaken about the timing.
One question that occurs to me is if you live in a diocese where the Bishop had given a dispensation, before John XXIII, would it be reasonable to view it as still in effect?
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One question that occurs to me is if you live in a diocese where the Bishop had given a dispensation, before John XXIII, would it be reasonable to view it as still in effect?
As far as I can tell, that dispensation was never given before John XXIII. The faculty was only granted for a five year period and had to be renewed. It seems to me that epikeia would be a bit of a stretch.
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It would seem it would be morally permissible in situations where you are off-grid etc but I think I'd rather just never eat meat on Friday as long as I live. Working on Saturdays too, pray for me.
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I forgot to note the distinction that is made between meat-derived foods, such as gravy, that may not have visible pieces of meat, but that retain the taste of meat due to fat, drippings, broth, etc. Some moral theologians say this is not properly "meat", some say it is. I would settle the doubt in favor of doing whatever one wishes in that regard.
I may have told this story before on here, but abstinence in Poland could be a little creative. One Good Friday, my wife and I were there, and her godmother had prepared a soup with a chicken filet as big as one's hand. When I questioned this, my wife said "oh, it's okay, it's just flavoring", and under this rubric, it was okay to eat the filet as well as the soup. It could be that under communism, food was hard enough to come by, that the bishops granted an indult with leniency such as this, and it was never revoked. I don't know. (This was in the 1990s after the Jaruzelski regime had fallen.)
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Correction here:
According to the label on the Heinz turkey gravy, it does supposedly contain turkey meat, but if there is any in it, I couldn't see it. It is just creamy gravy with the taste of turkey. Perhaps it is pureed after the fashion of baby food.
It doesn't matter anyway for me, I prepared dinner last night (had lunch at a community charity), partook of it, made a plate for my mother, then put the rest into recycled individual serving plates (thank you, Waffle House!) and froze them. I really don't want any Thanksgiving food today. I had it for both lunch and dinner yesterday.
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Annual bump! :laugh1:
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If it is prime rib roast that is left over, is it really a turkey indult? :laugh1:
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Just abstain from the damn meat already.
Very often, on Friday nights, my dinner consists of something like a bowl of tomato soup and a cheese or peanut butter sandwich, or some macaroni and cheese. There are some nights you just don't want fish.
The turkey will still be there on Saturday.
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The (sede) priest at one of the chapels I assist at mentioned this indult last Sunday.
Yep. Happened at my chapel last Sunday as well [well, a year later].
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Yep. Happened at my chapel last Sunday as well [well, a year later].
It’s a product of misinformation spread by various groups. I don’t believe there was ever any malicious intent, just mistaken attribution.
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It’s a product of misinformation spread by various groups. I don’t believe there was ever any malicious intent, just mistaken attribution.
I agree.
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We don't celebrate Thanksgiving. We are smoking 4 briskets tomorrow and enjoying a 4 day weekend.
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With everyone still worked up, we forgot about the annual argument over abstinence on the Friday after Thanksgiving. Of all people, we should be the ones remembering traditions! :cowboy:
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With everyone still worked up, we forgot about the annual argument over abstinence on the Friday after Thanksgiving. Of all people, we should be the ones remembering traditions! :cowboy:
Haha! We kept the abstinence and will partake in leftovers today. No cooking for mama! 😁😁😁
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Another relevant thread: https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/thanksgiving-indult/msg857795/#msg857795 (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/thanksgiving-indult/msg857795/#msg857795)
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Bless me Father, for I have not sinned. I took advantage of Pius XII’s turkey indult. I’m on vacation in a beach cabin without refrigeration. So I ate the turkey leftovers from the Thanksgiving restaurant meal on Thursday.
🦃 😋
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Bless me Father, for I have not sinned. I took advantage of Pius XII’s turkey indult. I’m on vacation in a beach cabin without refrigeration. So I ate the turkey leftovers from the Thanksgiving restaurant meal on Thursday.
🦃 😋
The late Fr. Leonard Giardina, OSB, who was ordained in the 1940s, would say every year, "From TIME IMMEMORIAL, the Friday after Thanksgiving has NOT BEEN A DAY OF ABSTINENCE! YOU MAY EAT MEAT!"
Indult or no indult, many, if not most bishops in the United States dispensed abstinence, and at this point, it has the force of custom.
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I was bad this Thanksgiving.
Very bad. For some reason I forgot it was Friday..
I hope to make it to confession.
I feel like a hypocrite now. Yikes. I took advantage of the indult by accident. I ate turkey scrapple at dienners. Dinner we split a turkey hoagie. I munched on turkey pepperoni.
Maybe I can do major penance this advent.
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I was bad this Thanksgiving.
Very bad. For some reason I forgot it was Friday..
I hope to make it to confession.
I feel like a hypocrite now. Yikes. I took advantage of the indult by accident. I ate turkey scrapple at dienners. Dinner we split a turkey hoagie. I munched on turkey pepperoni.
Maybe I can do major penance this advent.
You forgot it was Friday, so it was an”honest mistake,” regarding a venial matter, subjectively not a sin at all. Call it a weakness. The fact that there was an optional indult has no bearing because you don’t normally observe it. There’s no need to confess it. Of course, extra penance is always good.
In general, Catholics should follow the local custom when it comes to things such as the turkey indult. If I were surrounded by Catholics who don’t celebrate American Thanksgiving, or, even if American, are not accustomed to using the turkey indult, and my doing so would cause scandal, then I’d not eat the turkey on Friday.
If I were not accustomed to the turkey indult, but among people who do use it, I would eat the turkey on Friday if by abstaining, others would perceive m3cas a bad Catholic, or as a snob who has to demonstrate her piety by abstaining when others do not, then I’d eat the turkey.
For those whom insist it was for the entire Church, it is not. Only Americans observe the holiday at this time! America hardly comprises the entire Church!
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Just abstain from the damn meat already.
Considering one eats at least 2 days worth of meat on Thanksgiving day, it should be even easier to abstain the next Friday.
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I don't quite get it. There are loads of other national feasts in other countries. Is the Holy Mother Church supposed to give an indulgence to all of them? For example Canada has their thanksgiving as well
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I don't quite get it. There are loads of other national feasts in other countries. Is the Holy Mother Church supposed to give an indulgence to all of them? For example Canada has their thanksgiving as well
In Canada we have Thanksgiving on a Monday and get to eat meat for the next three days. That's way better than your one day indult. :jester:
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In Canada we have Thanksgiving on a Monday and get to eat meat for the next three days. That's way better than your one day indult. :jester:
Ha. I think it was always a Thursday here (although I'm not sure). They should have just made it a Monday like you guys since that is when most Federal holidays occur anyway.
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Ha. I think it was always a Thursday here (although I'm not sure). They should have just made it a Monday like you guys since that is when most Federal holidays occur anyway.
Moving Thanksgiving to a Monday is a good idea but please make getting rid of Daylight Savings Time the top priority. We are waiting for you guys to do it first.
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Moving Thanksgiving to a Monday is a good idea but please make getting rid of Daylight Savings Time the top priority. We are waiting for you guys to do it first.
I think most Americans would up thumb you on that!
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Here's a short history of the modern American Thanksgiving Day. Skip to about 7:30, unless you're interested in the cranberry-apple tart recipe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANBAZ-vHP8
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Ha. I think it was always a Thursday here (although I'm not sure). They should have just made it a Monday like you guys since that is when most Federal holidays occur anyway.
Thanksgiving Day has always been on a Thursday in the U.S. Prior to 1941, Thanksgiving was the last Thursday of November but was moved to the fourth Thursday of November by FDR.
AND...it should remain on Thursday because that is the tradition in the United States.
Personally, I would support changing all federal holidays back to the traditional dates regardless of when they fall during the week. In fact, the U.S. should adopt a few more holidays and everyone should know that if it happens to fall on a "non work day" (for most people outside the retail and restaurant industry) they just don't get an extra day off that holiday.
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Here's a short history of the modern American Thanksgiving Day. Skip to about 7:30, unless you're interested in the cranberry-apple tart recipe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANBAZ-vHP8
I quite like this youtuber... until I heard that he's a sodomite
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I quite like this youtuber... until I heard that he's a sodomite
I have no knowledge of his sɛҳuąƖ proclivities, but I do like some of his recipes and appreciate some of his unique historical research. So far I have found his episodes on garum and black mead to be my favorites, though I've never tried making either.
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Thanksgiving Day has always been on a Thursday in the U.S. Prior to 1941, Thanksgiving was the last Thursday of November but was moved to the fourth Thursday of November by FDR.
AND...it should remain on Thursday because that is the tradition in the United States.
Personally, I would support changing all federal holidays back to the traditional dates regardless of when they fall during the week. In fact, the U.S. should adopt a few more holidays and everyone should know that if it happens to fall on a "non work day" (for most people outside the retail and restaurant industry) they just don't get an extra day off that holiday.
I'm not particularly attached to that tradition. I'd be good with a specific date for it as well.
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I'm not particularly attached to that tradition. I'd be good with a specific date for it as well.
I think the Lord's day may be the most appropriate Thanksgiving. Free to eat anything and family can go to Mass together.