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Author Topic: The American Turkey Indult  (Read 45555 times)

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Offline Susanna

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The American Turkey Indult
« on: November 21, 2019, 08:00:35 AM »
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    • Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:


    U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.

    To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252. 

    Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 08:19:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Susanna on November 21, 2019, 08:00:35 AM
    Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:


    U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.

    To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252.

    Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
    Even though Leo XIII touched upon some things that Americans would rather not think about in Testem benevolentiae, Pius XII seems to have been the first pope who really "got" America and Americans.  For one thing, he had actually been to America, before he became Pope.
    Pius IX's friendship with Jefferson Davis is also inspiring.  Davis was denied the opportunity to become a Catholic in his boyhood, by his Dominican instructors.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #2 on: November 21, 2019, 08:48:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Susanna on November 21, 2019, 08:00:35 AM
    Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:


    U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.

    To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252.

    Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

    It’s a fact: 

    The same Apostolic Delegate who approved “passive membership” in the Freemasons for Americans also wanted you not to do penance on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

    Signs of the times, as Mithrandylan once asked?
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    Offline Susanna

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #3 on: November 21, 2019, 09:41:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 21, 2019, 08:48:43 AM
    It’s a fact:

    The same Apostolic Delegate who approved “passive membership” in the Freemasons for Americans also wanted you not to do penance on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

    Signs of the times, as Mithrandylan once asked?
    Not quite. That would be a renewal of the decree of the Holy Office (May 31, 1911) in Una Scrantonen, during the reign of Pope Pius X, and even then certain conditions had to be met.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 09:49:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Susanna on November 21, 2019, 09:41:22 AM
    Not quite. That would be a renewal of the decree of the Holy Office (May 31, 1911) in Una Scrantonen, during the reign of Pope Pius X, and even then certain conditions hat to be met.

    :laugh1: Johnson accusing an Apostolic delegate of being a liberal/modernist when this actually goes back to St. Pius X.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #5 on: November 21, 2019, 09:53:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 21, 2019, 08:48:43 AM
    It’s a fact:

    The same Apostolic Delegate who approved “passive membership” in the Freemasons for Americans also wanted you not to do penance on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

    Signs of the times, as Mithrandylan once asked?

    Nobody's stopping you from doing penance, but the issue is whether or not you're going to impute sin to those who decide to eat meat that day ... just like on your modesty thread.  At another point, you claimed that dispensations and relaxations of law like this are invalid because they're against the common good.  In that case, you really are required under pain of sin to fast on Wednesdays also, because that was the mandatory practice in the early Church.  For that matter, you need to be keeping the fast all of Advent just like in Lent, since that too used to be the Church's discipline, and so the relaxation of that was clearly invalid.  You should start a website to denounce all the lax Catholics who do not fast on all the weekdays of Advent like they used to in the good old days.

    :facepalm:
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 10:10:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Susanna on November 21, 2019, 09:41:22 AM
    Not quite. That would be a renewal of the decree of the Holy Office (May 31, 1911) in Una Scrantonen, during the reign of Pope Pius X, and even then certain conditions had to be met.

    Thank you for this information Susanna.  I am learning to be slower with my judgments, and had never heard of this decree, for which I thank you.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 04:14:28 PM »
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    • Excellent find Susanna.  Thank you.  
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 04:15:40 PM »
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    • Fortunately, I have not such important decisions to make.

    Would it not be possible, with modern refrigeration, to use up the turkey on Saturday.
    :facepalm:
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 04:34:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on November 21, 2019, 04:15:40 PM
    Fortunately, I have not such important decisions to make.

    Would it not be possible, with modern refrigeration, to use up the turkey on Saturday.
    :facepalm:
    I wonder whether there is more to it than just "leftovers".    In my family, due to extended family (nephews go to their in-laws on Thursday), we do not observe Thanksgiving until Friday.  I suspect that there are many families who have similar situations.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #10 on: November 21, 2019, 04:36:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 21, 2019, 04:34:19 PM
    I wonder whether there is more to it than just "leftovers".    In my family, due to extended family (nephews go to their in-laws on Thursday), we do not observe Thanksgiving until Friday.  I suspect that there are many families who have similar situations.

    Right.  I don't think it's primarily bout eating leftover food the next day but about allowing for the entire weekend to be "festive".
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #11 on: November 21, 2019, 05:56:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 21, 2019, 04:34:19 PM
    I wonder whether there is more to it than just "leftovers".    In my family, due to extended family (nephews go to their in-laws on Thursday), we do not observe Thanksgiving until Friday.  I suspect that there are many families who have similar situations.
    Why would you need to break a Church law for a national feast, as opposed to a Catholic feast? I can see an issue if, say, the Annunciation or Christmes day happens to be Friday, but why not celebrate with a non-meat meal? I know it's a national custom/tradition. I guess for most people, including Catholics, it would be unthinkable.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #12 on: November 21, 2019, 08:06:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on November 21, 2019, 05:56:39 PM
    Why would you need to break a Church law for a national feast, as opposed to a Catholic feast? I can see an issue if, say, the Annunciation or Christmes day happens to be Friday, but why not celebrate with a non-meat meal? I know it's a national custom/tradition. I guess for most people, including Catholics, it would be unthinkable.
    And why do you need to question other Catholics when the Pope himself allowed it?
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #13 on: November 21, 2019, 08:23:32 PM »
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    • The first Thanksgiving in USA was Catholic (and Te Deum)

    Nadir is right. Friday we should go meat less as a gift to God.  (Instead of Friday, have Thanksgiving on Saturday to celebrate with family)

    I never shop on Friday after Thanksgiving either.  Thanksgiving should be with family and friends.  Stores should be closed.  

    Making these little sacrifices will bring us all closer to God.  I know I have do this.





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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #14 on: November 21, 2019, 09:04:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 21, 2019, 08:06:03 PM
    And why do you need to question other Catholics when the Pope himself allowed it?
    Out of curiosity. But it was also a serious question. But just a question. I thought it reasonable to apply dispensation from Church law for Catholic feasts, but I was wondering that the same would apply to national feasts.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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