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Author Topic: SSPX Tradcuмania  (Read 8798 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2019, 05:25:43 PM »
I'm all for criticizing any persons or organizations who help the enemy by legitimizing the diabolical Conciliar Church and Vatican II. Just as we rightly criticize past popes who arranged "ecuмenical" meetings at Assisi. Truth has no place next to error. Vatican II is the ultimate in deception and error; it is literally the devil's masterpiece.

However, I have an honest question, please hear me out:

Where do neutral groups fit in?

For example, reprinters of pre-Vatican II Catholic literature, organizations which promote the Rosary, pro-Life, Gregorian Chant, the Brown Scapular, etc.?

Is it necessary for an organization dedicated to promoting Gregorian Chant or the Rosary to condemn the FSSP for its very real flaws re: its stance on the Crisis in the Church?

It just seems like the Crisis in the Church is not in scope for those organizations.

Gregorian chant is neither sedevacantist nor sedeplenist. It is Catholic. A misguided "Latin Mass" Catholic can enjoy it, as well as someone who has the full 100% package of the Truth. Likewise, we are all called to be pro-life and fight abortion in a systematic, organized manner. That includes the deluded Catholics in the Conciliar Church, and even more so those in the FSSP.

Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.

Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2019, 05:34:27 PM »
Good question. Obviously, there’s people I know who are quite liberal but attend the SSPX because it’s got “pretty music” (a man no less). But what about groups like say the Fatima Center (not the nuFatima Center that’s 100% SSPX backed). Fr Gruner never “officially” took a side in the SSPX/FSSP/ICK/Indult/NO war. He expressed Catholic dogma, promoted the traditional Mass, Rosary, Brown scapular, consecration of Russia, etc, but never “officially” came out and said “I adhere to group X” (even though he scarfed down a meal sitting next to then Fr Zendejas at that Bp Williamson conference in St Catherine’s a few years ago). Most people in all camps supported him because he simply spoke the truth which bought my support.


Offline Matthew

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Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2019, 05:46:44 PM »
So in other words, Bishop Fellay or Fr. Pagliarani attending such a conference SINS BY OMISSION by not taking the other "traditional" groups to task for their failings.

Meanwhile, representatives of companies or organizations promoting reprints of pre-Vatican II Catholic books, pro-Life, the Rosary, or Gregorian Chant might be practicing virtue by attending such a gathering. After all, there are many Catholics in attendance, and they ALL need to hear the specific message promoted by these groups.

It is not the job of a Gregorian Chant apostolate to untangle the theological mess caused by Vatican II. If such a group promotes Gregorian Chant, it is doing its job. Now one might argue that a "Gregorian Chant society" is NOT the be all and end all of what is needed today -- and the head of such a group might be the first to agree with you!

Just like it isn't the job of an individual Catholic to untangle Vatican II. That is why we are permitted to be "neutral" in the various controversies related to the Crisis in the Church. We are only tasked with saving our souls in whatever lifeboat we deem prudent: not in sorting out the Pope question or the Vatican II question. Therefore it follows that we lay Catholics can and should be "Trad-cuмenical", i.e., having Traditional Catholic acquaintances or even close friends who don't attend our favorite flavor of Trad chapel.

What is the alternative? To be curt but polite, or even refuse to speak, to anyone who isn't part of our particular Traditional group?

My point: a laymen -- or group of laymen -- is not in the same position as a priest or bishop. Clerics and laymen do not have the same obligations or roles to play with regards to fighting error. Especially controversial points of theology touching on the Crisis in the Church.

Offline Matthew

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Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2019, 05:58:53 PM »
I noted X said he was happy that all Resistance factions had supported the CCCC thread, but he also said their unity in that specific instance was accidental (ie., It was not his purpose to bring that about, but if, nevertheless, they all agree with its contents, so much the better, particularly since there was never a question of stifling differences to achieve that unanimous approval, which was once again accidental and not at all to his purpose).

So this would apply to my examples (reprinting classic Catholic books, the Rosary, pro-Life, Gregorian chant)
No truth was denied in promoting these things to all and sundry groups. No compromise is necessary, since Chant is neither pro-Summorum Pontificuм or against it. It doesn't call the Novus Ordo the "Ordinary form" or anything else. Chant is chant.

Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2019, 06:15:02 PM »
I think the example of Bp Fellay and Fr Pagliarani vs Fr Gruner is an important distinction. Bp Fellay represents the SSPX invariably. He was SG for 24 years, a Catholic Bishop in said Society for now 31 years so he really physically represents in a way (at least should represent, or maybe used to represent is more accurate) the resistance to VII and the NO and his presence at a conference should say something about the conferences status about those subjects. Now obviously he will be speaking at the Angelus Press conference where a NO presbyter who loves “St” JPII and his vulgar ToB will also give a talk. And that in and of itself says something. 

Fr Gruner never represented a group outside of the Fatima Center which wasn’t founded on resistance of VII and the NO outright, but on promoting the full message of Fatima. Of course we all know he shot down VII and the NO as well but it wasn’t his primary message, whereas the SSPX has shown (historically) their open resistance to the changes. Fr Gruner worked with anyone (the SSPX, FSSP, Resistance, NO, everyone) who supported the full message of Fatima, and the SSPX had always worked with people who wanted undiluted Catholicism with novelty. Obviously pro-life movements aren’t directly religious as being against murder is the natural law and written on all men’s hearts regardless of creed, and is quite dominated by Protestants, but our presence as a pro-life rally isn’t a Protestant service, it’s a rally against the murder of babies. My wife and I have attended them where they have had Prots, NO, whoever, and we just stick together and pray our Rosary and move on.