Author Topic: SSPX Tradcumania  (Read 3719 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SSPX Tradcumania
« on: July 09, 2019, 02:50:45 PM »
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  • Last week, I posted about the Angelus Press ecumenical conference (featuring semi-effeminate Theology of the Body expert, Fr. (?) Sean Kilcawley).

    But wait, there's more!

    There has to be reciprocity, you see!

    Therefore, I give you the Catholic Identity Conference lineup!!!

    Speakers
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    BISHOP ATHANASIUS SCHNEIDER
    Auxiliary Bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan
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    MICHAEL MATT
    Editor, The Remnant; Host of Remnant Underground
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    STEVE MOSHER
    President, Population Research Institute
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    DIANE MONTAGNA
    Rome Correspondent, LifesiteNews
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    TAYLOR MARSHALL, PH.D.
    Founder of New Saint Thomas Institute
    Founder of Troops of Saint George


    FR. JÜRGEN WEGNER
    United States District of the Society of St. Pius X

    CHRISTOPHER FERRARA
    President of American Catholic Lawyers, Inc.
     

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    CHORBISHOP ANTHONY SPINOSA
    Rector/Protopresbyter at Basilica and National Shrine of Our Lady of Lebanon

    FR. GREGORY PENDERGRAFT, FSSP
    Pastor of St. Stephan of Hungary Latin Mass Parish
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    [color][size][font]
    FR. HUGUES BEAUGRAND, IBP


    MORE SPEAKERS COMING SOON
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    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 02:56:03 PM »
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  • Dear CIC-

    If you are looking for more speakers, I am available!

    My topic will be:

    1) Why Archbishop Lefebvre condemned tradcumenical gatherings like the CIC;

    2) Why Archbishop Lefebvre said the rallied communities betrayed Tradition and were "doing the work of the devil;"

    3) Why every conciliarist of whatever stripe has compromised the faith, and objectively speaking, does not possess the Catholic faith.

    The US District and Michael Matt know how to get ahold of me!
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 04:50:46 PM »
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  • Could you post a few bullet points on the subject here? A lot of people think this is great because it's more exposure for the Society which will inevitably grow tradition. This must be what the leadership has in mind too. My gut and my instincts say that's not how it works in the real world, that there is something false about it. But I don't think I could explain it well if asked.

    Offline BarbaraZ

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 05:11:56 PM »
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  • Thank you, Sean, for your posts!

    Yes, please post some words from the Archbishop!  

    Modernism and the Catholicism cannot live in harmony and preach alongside one another. 

    Hoping you are invited to speak!    ;)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 06:24:35 PM »
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  • Hello HSM and Barbara: 

    I would refer you to posts 19 and 34 in the CCCC thread.

    Excerpt from #19:

    Archbishop Lefebvre considered collaboration with the rallied/approved once-traditional groups like the FSSP or IBP impossible:

    "And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

    Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

    Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecumenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?"
    http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations


    Excerpt from #34:

    Archbishop Lefebvre and the old SSPX pulled no punches in teaching the faithful why the Ecclesia Dei communities had sold out the fight for tradition, and that therefore we ought not to attend their Masses:

    "The Fraternity of St. Peter is founded upon more than questionable principles, for the following reasons:

    Quote
    Quote
    • to take away the Mass of all time (for the Novus Ordo Missae is not another form of this, question 5),
    • to grant it to those only who accept the same Conciliar Church’s novel orientations (in life, belief, structures),
    • to declare non-Catholic those who deny this by word or deed (An interpretation of "Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism [of Archbishop Lefebvre] is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication." Ecclesia Dei Afflicata), and,
    • to professes itself in a certain way in communion with anyone calling himself “Christian,” and yet to declare itself out of communion with Catholics whose sole crime is wanting to remain Catholic (Vatican II, e.g., Lumen Gentium, §15; Unitatis Redintegratio §3).


    Quote
    Quote
    • they reject the Novus Ordo Missae only because it is not their “spirituality” and claim the traditional Latin Mass only in virtue of their “charism” acknowledged them by the pope,
    • they seek to ingratiate themselves with the local bishops, praising them for the least sign of Catholic spirit and keeping quiet on their modernist deviations (unless perhaps it is a question of a diocese where they have no hopes of starting up), even though by doing so they end up encouraging them along their wrong path, and
    • note, for example, the Fraternity’s whole-hearted acceptance of the (New) Catechism of the Catholic Church (question 14), acceptance of Novus Ordo professors in their seminaries, and blanket acceptance of Vatican II’s orthodoxy (question 6).

    They are therefore Conciliar Catholics and not traditional Catholics.

    This being so, attending their Mass is:
        - accepting the compromise on which they are based,
        - accepting the direction taken by the Conciliar Church and the consequent destruction of the Catholic Faith and practices, and
        - accepting, in particular, the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the Novus Ordo Missae and Vatican II.


    That is why a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses."

    But that was the SSPX before the ralliement (or rather, before the ralliement was made public!).

    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 06:51:49 PM »
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  • Hello HSM and Barbara:

    I would refer you to posts 19 and 34 in the CCCC thread.

    Excerpt from #19:

    Archbishop Lefebvre considered collaboration with the rallied/approved once-traditional groups like the FSSP or IBP impossible:

    "And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

    Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

    Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecumenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?"
    http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations


    Excerpt from #34:

    Archbishop Lefebvre and the old SSPX pulled no punches in teaching the faithful why the Ecclesia Dei communities had sold out the fight for tradition, and that therefore we ought not to attend their Masses:

    "The Fraternity of St. Peter is founded upon more than questionable principles, for the following reasons:

    Quote

    Quote
    They are therefore Conciliar Catholics and not traditional Catholics.

    This being so, attending their Mass is:
      - accepting the compromise on which they are based,
        - accepting the direction taken by the Conciliar Church and the consequent destruction of the Catholic Faith and practices, and
        - accepting, in particular, the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the Novus Ordo Missae and Vatican II.


    That is why a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses."

    But that was the SSPX before the ralliement (or rather, before the ralliement was made public!).
    And then there is this letter from Archbishop Lefebvre (and how well it describes the SSPX of the last several years!!):

    A Letter from Archbishop Lefebvre, regarding Indult Masses
    Let us put this document in context:  It was written several months after “Operation Survival,” the consecration of the four bishops on 30 June 1988, which was accomplished not only without the approval of Pope John Paul II, but also against his will. The Fraternity of St. Peter was created the day following the consecrations, and conciliar Rome was busy trying to ‘pull in’ the more or less traditional Catholics.
    It is always good to reread Archbishop Lefebvre, particularly in order to understand that beyond some conciliatory steps and words towards the supreme authority (of the Church), he was not fooled.  He was well aware of the Fight for the Faith that (unfortunately) it was necessary to lead against this authority.
    Here is the text of his letter [bold emphasis is added by us]:

    "Saint-Michel en Brenne, 18 March 1989
    I am responding immediately to your kind letter which I received yesterday at Saint-Michel1, to tell you what I think about those priests who have received a “celebret” from the Roman Commission2 charged with dividing and destroying us.
    It is evident that by putting themselves in the hands of the current conciliar authorities, they are implicitly accepting the Council and the ensuing reforms, even if they have received some privileges which remain exceptional and provisory.
    Their speech is paralyzed because of this acceptance. The bishops are watching them! It is very regrettable that these priests are not aware of this reality.  But we cannot fool the faithful.
    The same may be said regarding these “traditional Masses” organized by the dioceses. They are celebrated between two conciliar masses. The celebrating priest says the new as well as the old.  How, and by whom is Holy Communion distributed? What will the sermon be? etc.
    These masses are scams which lead the faithful to compromise their principles!  Many have already abandoned them.
    What must change is their liberal and modernist doctrine.  We must arm ourselves with patience and pray. God’s hour will come.
    God’s blessings to you on this holy feast of Easter.
    Best regards to you in Christ and Mary.
    Abp. Lefebvre
    1 Saint-Michel en-Brenne is the Mother House of the sisters of the Society.
    2 Ecclesia Dei Commission"
    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 07:05:26 PM »
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  • And still more from the old SSPX: 

    "What final conclusion can we draw from all this?

    That the precept of attending Sunday Mass is obligatory for all Catholics who have reached the age of reason (seven years old) but that some may be excused particularly those who are only near Masses "of Pope Paul VI" or to traditional Masses said under the "Indult." Why? Firstly, because of the danger for the faith coming either from the priests who celebrate or from the faithful who attend them; secondly, legitimization is given to the new liturgy and finally an approval more or less implicit of the work of destruction of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Tradition."
    http://archives.sspx.org/motu_proprio/attendance_at_the_indult_vanes.htm
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 07:15:08 PM »
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  • PS: Did any of you ever figure out why the Ecclesia Dei Commission was dissolved?

    I will spare you the discourse:

    It was because the very existence of the commission was a reminder of the division between the SSPX and Rome (and Rome's scam indult communities - a word ABL used to describe them).  

    By abolishing the commission, in combination with the SSPX no longer preaching/writing about the things which separate the traditionalists from the indultarians, the oppositional mentality will vanish from the majority of SSPXers (who are mostly morons, easily led by the nose), and the very notion of a principled division will fade from the consciousness.

    Satanic.

    But their handlers (Roman and Swiss) are no morons.

    They knew their people well.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 08:20:58 PM »
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  • That was very helpful, thank you!

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #9 on: July 10, 2019, 02:27:32 PM »
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  • Hi Sean,

    What would you suggest as an alternative to such events as the Catholic Identity Conference, that would bring the different Trad Groups together, and yet admit that their are serious differences and even debate them and yet find some common ground or common problem to unit against? Can such an event be possible, or would it end up in either a "food fight" or "hug fest"?



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 03:11:05 PM »
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  • Hi Sean,

    What would you suggest as an alternative to such events as the Catholic Identity Conference, that would bring the different Trad Groups together, and yet admit that their are serious differences and even debate them and yet find some common ground or common problem to unit against? Can such an event be possible, or would it end up in either a "food fight" or "hug fest"?

    Hello Mr. G-

    It’s not clear to me how organizing a conference upon the lines you suggest would be any different than the tradcumenical Angelus Press and CIC conferences, in principle.

    That is to say, all those sects participating in those conferences would surely declare that there are many issues which divide them (well, they might not declare it to each other, but they would declare it to critics like you and I; between each other they would only discuss issues of mutual agreement, and therein lies just one of the problems).

    Once you take that approach, you have dropped the sword (ie., You have agreed not to condemn error, and encouraged and conveyed a certain degree of indifference) and the same would be true in the Resistance:

    Shall Fr. Hewko (who -against both the Council of Trent and Archbishop Lefebvre- believes in valid but sterile sacraments, or that Almighty God is powerless to make a Novus Ordo Eucharistic miracle without simultaneously endorsing the Novus Ordo, as though such a miracle could not be used by Him to combat lack of faith in the Real Presence that Rite promotes) sit down next to Bishop Williamson, to discuss their mutual opposition to modernist Rome or the SSPX sellout?  

    If they did, the message which would be sent to the faithful is that the dogmatic decrees of Trent are not compulsory, and the result would be scandal deleterious to faith, and prejudicial to salvation of those who would subsequently adopt such a position.

    The Resistance would be hypocrites to convene any such pluralist convocation.

    I noted X said he was happy that all Resistance factions had supported the CCCC thread, but he also said their unity in that specific instance was accidental (ie., It was not his purpose to bring that about, but if, nevertheless, they all agree with its contents, so much the better, particularly since there was never a question of stifling differences to achieve that unanimous approval, which was once again accidental and not at all to his purpose).
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #11 on: July 10, 2019, 03:39:11 PM »
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  • I wonder who will hosting this event. My vote would be for Mr. Rorque, as this whole things practically occupies a place of deluded subjective reality.

    "Welcome to Fantasy Island" ......Da Pope! da pope!

    This is a serious journey,not a Hobbit walking party.

    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #12 on: July 10, 2019, 04:09:49 PM »
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  • That is to say, all those sects participating in those conferences would surely declare that there are many issues which divide them (well, they might not declare it to each other, but they would declare it to critics like you and I; between each other they would only discuss issues of mutual agreement, and therein lies just one of the problems).

    Once you take that approach, you have dropped the sword (ie., You have agreed not to condemn error, and encouraged and conveyed a certain degree of indifference) and the same would be true in the Resistance:


    So what we need is a few rounds of actual debates. No lovely dovey, "let's find things in common to promote false unity", but a rough and tumble "let's hash out our differences and spell out the principles behind them". 

    But is that appropriate for Catholic priests? 

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #13 on: July 10, 2019, 04:17:06 PM »
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  • Wait, wait... this won't be complete until TrashCultNut is a featured speaker. True SSPX= Society of St. Planet X!  :incense:
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: SSPX Tradcumania
    « Reply #14 on: July 10, 2019, 05:06:23 PM »
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  • Wait, wait... this won't be complete until TrashCultNut is a featured speaker. True SSPX= Society of St. Planet X!  :incense:
    Planet X you say?..... :D :D :D :D


    This is a serious journey,not a Hobbit walking party.

     

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