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Author Topic: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes  (Read 1706 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2021, 04:39:33 AM »
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  • As I explained above, you make a joke of Church teaching:
    You have not explained or addressed anything I asked, you only ignore my points and questions as you just did with this ^^ post. 

    I have asked which of the Divine Laws applies to the pope problem, Lad says Fr. Fenton has a long article about it - well, at least he acknowledged the question, whereas you say the divine law that applies is ius divinum naturale which means the Divine Law that applies is "known by reason itself based on the nature of things," which is not a Divine Law at all. Everything and anything can be construed to be Divine Law with that explanation - including what I've been posting.

    Now you quote from Oath against modernism saying how we can know God, which once again, has nothing whatsoever to do with Divine Law at all, let alone the Divine Law that applies to the pope problem - and you call *this* your explanation?

    Do you even realize any of this at all?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #31 on: September 09, 2021, 05:02:14 AM »
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  • Manifest heretics can't simply be absolved in Confession.  That's only for occult heresy, say you consented to a heretical proposition in your mind.  Once you become a manifest heretic, you have to be received back into the Church, make an abjuration of error and profession of faith.

    You're confusing the sin of heresy with the public/manifest heresy, which excludes from membership in the Church, according to St. Robert Bellarmine and every theologian in history bar one.
    No, manifest heresy is a sin and like all sins can be absolved in confession. Where did you come up with "that's only for occult heresy?"


    Quote
    Did you miss (or simply ignore) this part of the quote?
    Quote
    Quote
    the prior abjuration being conducted juridically and observing those other things that in law ought to be observed; and one thus absolved can thereupon be absolved from sin by any confessor in the forum of conscience.


    Once the person has been received back into the Church in the EXTERNAL forum, then he can be absolved "in the forum of conscience".
    No, I did not miss that part, but you must have missed this part:

    Quote
    But if, however, the delict of apostasy, heresy, or schism has been brought in any manner to the external forum of the local Ordinary, even by voluntary confession, that same Ordinary, but not the Vicar General without a special mandate, can by his own ordinary power absolve one duly recovered in the external forum

    Which means that as long as the penitent walks into the confessional and confesses his sins of apostasy, heresy or schism, the priest can absolve him from his sins just the same as every other member of the Church


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #32 on: September 09, 2021, 09:23:59 AM »
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  • No, manifest heresy is a sin and like all sins can be absolved in confession. Where did you come up with "that's only for occult heresy?"



    Once the person has been received back into the Church in the EXTERNAL forum, then he can be absolved "in the forum of conscience".
    No, I did not miss that part, but you must have missed this part:

    Which means that as long as the penitent walks into the confessional and confesses his sins of apostasy, heresy or schism, the priest can absolve him from his sins just the same as every other member of the Church.
    Isn't the bishop the ordinary not the priest?

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #33 on: September 09, 2021, 10:13:54 AM »
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  • Isn't the bishop the ordinary not the priest?
    Not these days. Besides, him going to a NO bishop would pretty much defeat the whole purpose - no?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #34 on: September 09, 2021, 11:03:01 AM »
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  • Not these days. Besides, him going to a NO bishop would pretty much defeat the whole purpose - no?
    I don't follow you.  If the ordinary is the bishop how does going to a priest absolve from heresy?  You are saying since there are maybe a few ordinaries left and most places don't have one the rule is null and the priest can do it?


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2021, 12:15:02 PM »
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  • I don't follow you.  If the ordinary is the bishop how does going to a priest absolve from heresy?  You are saying since there are maybe a few ordinaries left and most places don't have one the rule is null and the priest can do it?
    I'm saying these days, the Prior of a trad chapel *is* the Ordinary. If that is unacceptable or wrong, then like any other member of the Church, a heretic could also simply go to a NO Bishop for confession....which still and again, is a something only those inside of the Church can do - which is precisely the point. 

    If those who've lost the faith and became heretics, Apostates and schismatics are outside of the Church and no longer members, then the sacrament of confession (and all the other sacraments) are as completely closed to heretics as they are to everyone else who is outside of the Church. But that's not the case with fallen away Catholics who've become repentant heretics, they still have the same privilege of being absolved in confession as all the other members- because even as a heretic, they are still a member.

    Trent even teaches that in danger of death, it does not matter what your sin or censure is, even heretics wanting to repent can receive the last sacraments or must get to confession - even if that means receiving these sacraments from a heretic priest.

    This is a major sticking point for sedes who, based on some theologians' speculations, insist heretics are not members, as such the pope cannot be pope because being a heretic he is not a member, and if he's not a member he is not pope. Next they claim these speculations are Divine Law, but have yet to say which Divine Law it is, also when or where this law has been revealed - and why a non-member can receive sacraments that only members are allowed to receive.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #36 on: September 09, 2021, 10:46:44 PM »
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  • Father Hesse:

    "... They will quote Pope Paul IV... The docuмent is called cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio. That's the title of the docuмent. It's a docuмent which enjoys all the infallibility it could have. It's a docuмent that uses all the legal formulas for an infallible docuмent. That means the pope says, "I, in virtue of my apostolic authority herewith declare, define and statute that and that and that and that and that and that, and that has to be held and believed by all people forever." And in that docuмent, which also rules on the election of a future pope--on the conclave, it says that no cardinal, if he is a heretic or was a heretic can be validly elected to the papacy. Many sedevacantists use this docuмent as the definite proof that John XXIII, who in their eyes was a heretic before his election, they use this as the proof that John XXIII, having been a heretic before his election, could not be validly elected. They are quite wrong on that because, again, and this is why I said you have to be careful about the distinction between matters of discipline, matters of Faith. Pope Paul [IV], with his cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio, was able to bind all of his successors forever in everything that concerns moral or dogmatic teaching in this docuмent. To rule on the election of a future pope is not a moral decision. It is not a decision on moral theology. It is not a decision of Faith. It's not a matter of morals or Faith. It is the ruling of a canonical election. That means you talk about an act of administration. You talk about an administrative ruling. And that cannot, because it's mere disciplinary, cannot bind his successors, and indeed, the many successors of Paul [IV] who came up with new regulations on the conclave, including Pius X, never mentioned that paragraph again. So it's not taken up anymore. And I think if the question of a former heretic or a material heretic not being able to become pope was something that the popes cannot change, then we're probably in sedesvacancy for several centuries already. See, the present pope is not the first heretic in Church history."

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #37 on: September 09, 2021, 10:51:14 PM »
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  • Father Hesse:

    "... One of the reasons why we cannot positively state that this pope is not pope is because first of all we need proof. We do not have this proof. Some people quote the apostolic bull of Paul IV, cuм Ex Apostolatus against the present pope, saying that Paul IV decreed that a heretic cannot become pope. Yes, but the papal election is an act of administration, not a sacrament. It is not a theological procedure, therefore there cannot be an infallible pronouncement on it. It is an act of administration just like all elections. When in a monastery an abbot is elected, this is a canonical election. The election of the supreme pontiff among the cardinals is a canonical election. And those rules can not only be changed, but were changed a couple of dozen times over in Church history. Leo XIII changed the rules, Pius X changed the rules, Pius XI changed the rules again, Pius XII changed the rules again, Paul VI changed it, and the present pope changed it again. And none of them has ever quoted Paul IV again on this. Now the bull cuм Ex Apostolatus is an infallible bull as far as the doctrinal statements are concerned. It cannot be infallible as far as an administrative rule is concerned, saying that if a cardinal was a heretic, even if he was a heretic and converted, he cannot be validly elected pope. To be validly elected pope you need positive human law and law of administration, and that every single pope can change, much unlike the doctrinal laws, which no pope can change ever. If a pope decides on a moral issue, his successor cannot change it. Impossible. He would put himself in schism with the Church. But a rule of administration, and how it can be changed! And how! In the beginning the people of Rome elected the pope. Later on, it was the clergy of Rome, and very much later on, only 1300 years after Christ died and ressurected and founded His Church at Pentecost, cardinals were the only ones to elect the pope. So if a future pope says, "I don't want cardinals to elect the pope, but all of the bishops in the world," he's gonna make a mess but that doesn't make the election invalid. It would be horrible. I don't want to think of it. But it doesn't make the election, duly procedures required and provided, it doesn't make it invalid because it's an act of administration. And that's why I recommend the sedevacantists to be a little more careful with their judgements. The Society of Saint Pius X is not exactly composed of all idiots, and none of them nowadays consider the Apostolic See vacant. And the three priests, Fathers Sanborn, Kelly and Cekada unfortunately, because they are otherwise very good theologians, unfortunately had to be kicked out of the Society of Saint Pius X for insisting on the "fact" that we do not have a pope. To me this is a neurotic statement, too, because you put yourself in a dead end. Who's gonna elect the next pope? I leave the question to you."


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #38 on: September 09, 2021, 10:53:30 PM »
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  • Father Hesse:

    "... Paul IV was also the one who issued the papal bull cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio that determined that a former heretic could not become pope. What I really should, for practical reasons, not passing any judgement on anyone here, but for practical purposes, I should say the '1958 sedevacantists'--those who believe that John XXIII was not pope because before he was elected he was a heretic. ... The next pope who wrote about the laws of how to elect a pope didn't even mention cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio. And the papal practice was even worse. While Paul IV in cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio says a former heretic cannot become pope, privately he made sure that every cardinal understood that one who was formally suspect of heresy could not become pope. Now Leo XIII beautifully contradicted that when he made the former heretic, John Henry Newman, Cardinal John Henry Newman. So Leo XIII theoretically made a former heretic, John Henry Newman, Anglican minister who converted Catholic, became a Catholic priest, John Henry Cardinal Newman, therefore he was eligible to the papacy. Out goes cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio, written by a paranoid pope anyway."

    Offline Cato

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #39 on: September 10, 2021, 12:31:15 AM »
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  • Thank you NIFH for Fr. Hesse’s explanation.  I found it most helpful.

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #40 on: September 10, 2021, 08:27:18 AM »
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  • You spent 1000 words to try to convince me of a very simple yet absurd idea.  That a Non Catholic can be the leader of all the Catholics on earth.  It makes no sense, the mental gymnastics required to get your conclusions are ridiculous, and the conclusions your position lead to are what we have now.  A "pope" worshipping idols on top of St Peters tomb. 


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #41 on: September 10, 2021, 10:18:49 AM »
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  • Father Hesse:

    "... Paul IV was also the one who issued the papal bull cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio that determined that a former heretic could not become pope. What I really should, for practical reasons, not passing any judgement on anyone here, but for practical purposes, I should say the '1958 sedevacantists'--those who believe that John XXIII was not pope because before he was elected he was a heretic. ... The next pope who wrote about the laws of how to elect a pope didn't even mention cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio. And the papal practice was even worse. While Paul IV in cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio says a former heretic cannot become pope, privately he made sure that every cardinal understood that one who was formally suspect of heresy could not become pope. Now Leo XIII beautifully contradicted that when he made the former heretic, John Henry Newman, Cardinal John Henry Newman. So Leo XIII theoretically made a former heretic, John Henry Newman, Anglican minister who converted Catholic, became a Catholic priest, John Henry Cardinal Newman, therefore he was eligible to the papacy. Out goes cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio, written by a paranoid pope anyway."

    Well, that's one way of reading "former" or "prior."

    Another valid way is at the moment before election. That is, not at some remote time in the past, but at the very moment preceding elevation - thus, the elevation would be of a non-Catholic at the moment of selection. 


    After all, one can convert from or renounce a former heresy and become fully Catholic. I don't think even the "paranoid" Paul VI would call that into question.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Paul IV’s Decree on Heretical Popes
    « Reply #42 on: September 10, 2021, 10:25:50 AM »
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  • Father Hesse:

    "... One of the reasons why we cannot positively state that this pope is not pope is because first of all we need proof. We do not have this proof.

    Sure we do.  We know that the Church and the Papacy are guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot produce this degree of error and harm upon the faithful (e.g. Vatican II and the New Mass).

    We don't have proof regarding the particulars, whether their elections were rigged or they're infiltrators ... but we can know that they are not popes, or, rather, not acting as popes ... since there is the possibility (albeit unlikely) that they are being blackmailed and their acts are null due to the duress.