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Author Topic: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo  (Read 19731 times)

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Offline Matto

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Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
« Reply #285 on: October 22, 2020, 08:14:21 PM »
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    • Pax Vobis, you are being ridiculous. As ridiculous as a troll. And I don't even have to explain why. Even more ridiculous than Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificuм. Stop it.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #286 on: October 22, 2020, 08:16:47 PM »
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    • Quote
    What I'm asserting is that if the missal is of the Church, then so too is the Mass. And a Mass of the Church cannot be heretical or blasphemous.

    A legal act does not mean it's valid or moral.  Legality is of the human sphere of the Church; validity and morality of the Divine.
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    Quote
    I believe it was you making a distinction between the two, not me, when you suggested the missal could have been lawfully promulgated but not the Mass.
    No, I said the missal could lawfully exist, but it could not lawfully be used (i.e. the mass could not lawfully be said).
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    I'm not arguing that it could not be illicit for the NO Mass to be said even if Missale Romanum was licit, but rather that the NO Mass must be valid and not inherently heretical or blasphemous in that case.
    No, doesn't follow.  A legal act is not necessarily moral.
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    It's like how the Conciliar Church (falsely) claimed it was illicit to say the Tridentine Mass for many years. They didn't say the Mass was invalid or inherently blasphemous, because it would be ridiculous and a heretical contradiction of Trent to claim that, even if (in their belief) permission was revoked to say it.
    Yes, multiple bishops claimed the True Mass was illegal, but +Benedict (after 40 years) cleared up the issue.  The original claim by the evil bishops was wrong.
    .

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    Likewise, I'm saying that even if it is unlawful for clergy to say NO Mass, that it cannot be invalid, inherently heretical, or blasphemous so long as Missale Romanum was lawfully promulgated.

    A legal, human act of the Church does not make it automatically valid/heretical.  Are you insane?!  So if a pope changes canon law to say that: mass can be legally celebrated after 9pm (which is currently illicit), that means that ALL masses celebrated after 9pm are automatically valid and moral?  That makes no sense.
    .
    Just because a mass is legal (i.e. circuмstances...after 9pm), does not mean they are automatically valid or moral.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #287 on: October 22, 2020, 08:20:40 PM »
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    I'm referring to the canons of the Mass in Session 22 of the Council of Trent. http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm

    I still don't grasp your point, though I want to.  I'm sorry, I am dense.
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    Agreed. I was just saying QP wouldn't prohibit him from promulgating a new missal, not that Missale Romanum necessarily abrogated the sections preventing the use of other missals.

    Agree, the creation of a new missal is just that.  It does not mean the new missal is orthodox or able to be used, playing devil's advocate....which is the mindset we must use when dealing with V2 modernists.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #288 on: October 22, 2020, 08:21:12 PM »
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    Pax Vobis, you are being ridiculous. As ridiculous as a troll. And I don't even have to explain why. Even more ridiculous than Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificuм. Stop it.

    Details?
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    Offline Sin of Adam

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #289 on: October 22, 2020, 11:11:13 PM »
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    • Honestly I can relate to Mr. Salza.

    The R&R position is like agnostocism in a way. It is a cop out and a weak response. It fails to commit someone to a solid position. Moreover it has serious issues in that in its more extreme forms, it makes the Roman Catholic Church into a Roman Protestant Cult. 

    Just look at the SSPX & the Resistance. They operate as if there were no Pope. In fact they operate exactly like the Eastern Orthodox. The previous Popes and councils serving for them what the Councils & Fathers do for the EO.

    Either submit to Bergoglio like a real Catholic would do if he were the Pope or come out and say he isn't Pope.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #290 on: October 22, 2020, 11:50:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: claudel on October 22, 2020, 02:36:29 PM
    You've never left me in doubt that rational explanation is wasted on you. Thanks for the reminder that sniggering is your default response to virtually everything.

    As someone who buys into Father Scott's argument that it is not licit to avail oneself of the Mass promulgated for the Church by someone who is at the same time recognized as a true pope, your lack of doubt in that regard doesn't surprise me. Your adoption of Father Scott's "not licit" argument is as manifest a condemnation of your "judgment" as the wearing of scarlet letter formerly was of moral turbitude.

    If you indeed read my posts, you will find I rarely, if ever, "snigger." I only do so when encountering an idiotic argument. So unfortunately your impression of me, based as it is on my replies to you, will be disproportionately freighted with sniggering.

    Good night, Sir Rationality.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #291 on: October 23, 2020, 04:53:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 22, 2020, 04:19:20 PM
    Quote
    "We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified....Wherefore, in order that the Missal be preserved incorrupt throughout the whole world and kept free of flaws and errors, the penalty for nonobservance for printers, whether mediately or immediately subject to Our dominion, and that of the Holy Roman Church...."

    I believe this passage is why the Modernists chose to call Paul 6's missal the "new order".  They did not want it to be confused with a revision of the True Mass.  In my opinion, God would not allow this level of confusion/deceit, so the Modernists had to be content with the legal definition of "new".  They knew they could not abrogate/delete the True Mass; the only way to get rid of it is to create a false liturgy that people would "prefer" and so get rid of the True Mass indirectly.
    It's like everything else NO Pax, they call the missal "New" when what they actually did was revise the Roman Missal, then passed that missal off as being "New", it's the same trick they use for most (not all) things NO - just like they call their religion "Catholic" when it is certainly not, and so on.

    No, the law prohibits everything they did, which means that what they did was illegal right from the very first word they removed from the Roman Missal for the purpose of eliminating the True Mass.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #292 on: October 23, 2020, 05:03:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Sin of Adam on October 22, 2020, 11:11:13 PM
    Honestly I can relate to Mr. Salza.

    The R&R position is like agnostocism in a way. It is a cop out and a weak response. It fails to commit someone to a solid position. Moreover it has serious issues in that in its more extreme forms, it makes the Roman Catholic Church into a Roman Protestant Cult.

    Just look at the SSPX & the Resistance. They operate as if there were no Pope. In fact they operate exactly like the Eastern Orthodox. The previous Popes and councils serving for them what the Councils & Fathers do for the EO.

    Either submit to Bergoglio like a real Catholic would do if he were the Pope or come out and say he isn't Pope.
    Meanwhile you have the sede position which emphatically insists that the Church teaches popes cannot teach major error to the whole Church so are always infallibly safe to follow.

    Either submit to the pope or come out as R&R like a real Catholic.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #293 on: October 23, 2020, 07:15:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 22, 2020, 03:24:39 PM
    Did you read through the whole thread?  I posted an update.
    I must of missed it when I posted my question. But then I found your update, however it was blank, I tried another computer and it was blank also. All I see is a large empty space.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #294 on: October 23, 2020, 07:29:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on October 23, 2020, 07:15:53 AM
    I must of missed it when I posted my question. But then I found your update, however it was blank, I tried another computer and it was blank also. All I see is a large empty space.
    It still shows for me.  Not sure why you can't see it.  
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #295 on: October 23, 2020, 07:34:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on October 23, 2020, 07:15:53 AM
    I must of missed it when I posted my question. But then I found your update, however it was blank, I tried another computer and it was blank also. All I see is a large empty space.
    That is odd.  I just checked the entire topic and all of her posts appear.  You might want to check the settings on your computer and see if it is set to "Democratic Mode" where it filters out all truth.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #296 on: October 23, 2020, 07:42:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 23, 2020, 07:34:21 AM
    That is odd.  I just checked the entire topic and all of her posts appear.  You might want to check the settings on your computer and see if it is set to "Democratic Mode" where it filters out all truth.
    :jester:
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #297 on: October 23, 2020, 07:54:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 23, 2020, 07:34:21 AM
    That is odd.  I just checked the entire topic and all of her posts appear.  You might want to check the settings on your computer and see if it is set to "Democratic Mode" where it filters out all truth.
    All I see is what she wrote: "So this was John Salza's "answer": "
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #298 on: October 23, 2020, 08:03:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 22, 2020, 08:16:47 PM
    A legal act does not mean it's valid or moral.  Legality is of the human sphere of the Church; validity and morality of the Divine.
    .
    No, I said the missal could lawfully exist, but it could not lawfully be used (i.e. the mass could not lawfully be said).
    .
    No, doesn't follow.  A legal act is not necessarily moral.
    .
    Yes, multiple bishops claimed the True Mass was illegal, but +Benedict (after 40 years) cleared up the issue.  The original claim by the evil bishops was wrong.
    .

    A legal, human act of the Church does not make it automatically valid/heretical.  Are you insane?!  So if a pope changes canon law to say that: mass can be legally celebrated after 9pm (which is currently illicit), that means that ALL masses celebrated after 9pm are automatically valid and moral?  That makes no sense.
    .
    Just because a mass is legal (i.e. circuмstances...after 9pm), does not mean they are automatically valid or moral.
    Yes it does. Trent guarantees that: that no Mass of the Church can be blasphemous, heretical or invalid.

    The Mass can still be illicit to say if the law provides for that, but Trent infallibly confirms that the Masses of the Church are valid.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John Salza leaves SSPX and returns to Novus Ordo
    « Reply #299 on: October 23, 2020, 08:06:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 23, 2020, 04:53:57 AM
    I believe this passage is why the Modernists chose to call Paul 6's missal the "new order".  They did not want it to be confused with a revision of the True Mass.  In my opinion, God would not allow this level of confusion/deceit, so the Modernists had to be content with the legal definition of "new".  They knew they could not abrogate/delete the True Mass; the only way to get rid of it is to create a false liturgy that people would "prefer" and so get rid of the True Mass indirectly.

    It's like everything else NO Pax, they call the missal "New" when what they actually did was revise the Roman Missal, then passed that missal off as being "New", it's the same trick they use for most (not all) things NO - just like they call their religion "Catholic" when it is certainly not, and so on.

    No, the law prohibits everything they did, which means that what they did was illegal right from the very first word they removed from the Roman Missal for the purpose of eliminating the True Mass.
    Missale Romanum was legally on the same level as Quo Primum, so no Quo Primum could not have prohibited Missale Romanum from doing anything. Where laws of equal standing contradict, the newer overrides the older. 

    If the NO Mass was a revision of the Tridentine Mass as you claim, then it was perfectly lawful to do so.
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