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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 442134 times)

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #905 on: May 02, 2018, 03:46:53 PM »
Quote
He did not promise that these popes would be faithful.
Stop. Just stop.

 ‘I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.’
This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine.
- Vatican I

The Church has therefore explicitly taught that the Pope has the gift of unfailing faith (identified by Innocent III with his personal faith through the very citation from Luke found in the preceding text of Vatican I, so spare me the nonsense about it referring to the faith of the Church). Nothing Jesus Christ prays for is refused.

Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #906 on: May 02, 2018, 03:57:51 PM »
Clowns like Drew and Stubborn confuse indefectibility with mere material continuity.  But why did Our Lord found this Church and this Magisterium in the first place?  Precisely in order to keep people anchored in the truth and to help save their souls.  But if it does the OPPOSITE, lead them into error and endanger their souls, then it has FAILED IN ITS MISSION.  That is more defectibility than if some office or another remains vacant for a length of time.

Ladislaus,
 
It is impossible for a Catholic to confuse “indefectibility with mere material continuity.”  Why?  Because, Indefectibility is primarily an Attribute of God.  It is an Attribute of the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is a divine institution.  Indefectibility as an Attribute is a spiritual power that cannot be confused with crass materialism.  God has promised that the papal office would be preserved with perpetual successors until the consummation of the world.  The spiritual authority cannot be lost without the destruction of the office.
 
Indefectibility relates primarily to the proper worship of God and the sanctification of the faithful as said before.  The proof of the Indefectibility of the Church is that the true worship of God and the means of sanctification of the faithful have never been absent from the Church even with the corruptions since Vatican II.  There has always been a faithful remnant that have not accepted any Novus Ordo prevarications in doctrine, worship or morals.
 
Furthermore, the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church grounded upon its Attributes of Authority and Infallibility has not at any time failed to teach the truth even on those rare occasions when engaged by heretical popes. 
 
Those who make the pope their rule of faith will fail.  Those who keep dogma as their rule of faith will not.  
 
Drew


Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #907 on: May 02, 2018, 04:07:16 PM »
I am defending this truth:






Ecunemical Councils represent the Universal Church and cannot err, because the Holy Ghost cannot err.

Catarella,

So you are claiming that everything from an ecuмenical council is infallible?  Everything without exception even when there is no intent to define doctrine or morals definitively and impose those determinations upon all the faithful as formal objects of divine and Catholic faith?  And the above evidence is your proof of this claim?

Drew

Offline drew

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #908 on: May 02, 2018, 04:18:13 PM »
Stop. Just stop.

‘I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.’
This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine.
- Vatican I

The Church has therefore explicitly taught that the Pope has the gift of unfailing faith (identified by Innocent III with his personal faith through the very citation from Luke found in the preceding text of Vatican I, so spare me the nonsense about it referring to the faith of the Church). Nothing Jesus Christ prays for is refused.

Theosist,

Go back to the beginning of the thread.  This has been covered multiple times.  You are not the first to make this claim.  It is made by everyone who holds the pope as their rule of faith.  If after reading the previous posts you have a problem then offer your objections.  There are those like Cantarella who would agree with you but not one Church Father held that a personal never-failing faith was promised to the successors of St. Peter.  The never-failing faith of the popes only means that they cannot engage the Magisterial power of the Church to bind doctrinal and/or moral error and this was dogmatically defined at Vatican I.
 
Rev. Cornelius a Lapide addresses this directly and explicitly in his Great Commentary.

Drew

Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #909 on: May 02, 2018, 04:44:25 PM »
I am claiming that Ecunemical Councils do not err. The fallible part of the narrative simply concerns disciplinary issues that are temporary in nature; but there are still not errors. The Holy Ghost assists Ecunemical Councils.

What part of that don't you understand?

Cantarella,

This is just another claim that there is a non-infallible infallibility to go along with the infallible infallibility.  Or as Ladislaus likes to call it, the "Infallible Security."  This really means the pope is your rule of faith because it is the pope who engages the Magisterium and without the pope, there is no Magisterium.  The pope has to be the rule of faith because he personally can never err.

This historically is untenable. And if the pope is the personal rule of faith regarding doctrine, why not morals as well? When you include area of morals to which the infallibility of the Church also extends it is easier to why the pope cannot be the rule of faith.

Even the authority you just cited is not saying what you claim.  The quote you provided says:

Quote
"Secondly we note, that the holy Councils lawfully kept for determination, or clearing of doubts, or condemning of errors and Heresies, or appeasing of Schisms and troubles, or reformation of like, and such like important matters, have ever the assistance of God’s Spirit, and therefore cannot err in their sentences and determination concerning the same, because the Holy Ghost cannot err, from whom (as you see here) jointly with the Council the resolution proceedeth."
Quote provided by Cantarella

I agree perfectly with this quote.  But what do we call the Councils “determination, clearing of doubts, or condemning of errors and heresies, etc., etc.,?  They are called Dogmas. And it is in these determinations where the help of the Holy Ghost is always and infallibly present because the Holy Ghost is the formal and final cause of Dogma.  When there is no intent to make a “determination” on these matters of faith and morals, there is no infallibility present.

Drew