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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 440723 times)

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Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #85 on: March 12, 2018, 06:40:25 PM »
No, CATHOLICS hold that the Magisterium is the proximate rule of faith, not the pope per se.  So you open with a complete strawman distortion of Catholic teaching.  R&R like yourself concocted this nonsense about DOGMA itself, i.e. YOUR private judgment interpretation of said dogma, being the rule of faith ... and have thus essentially embraced Protestantism, the only difference being that the Prots hold that there's only one source of said dogma, while you hold two.  Other than that, you're nothing but a run-of-the-mill Protestant.  Dogmas is the object of the faith, not its rule.  We've gone through this already.

You make distinctions that cannot be made, and then cannot make distinctions that should.  In a previous exchange on this same subject you divided the two necessary and essential attributes of the virtue of faith.  In this exchange you divide the matter from the form of the papal office and cannot see a necessary substantial change that must follow. Then you cannot make a simple distinction between the Magisterium, which is the means, from dogma, which is the end and which constitutes the formal object of divine and Catholic faith. It is the formal object that constitutes the rule.  And this fact can be seen as evident if you simply examine the answers that are given to questions on defined doctrine. The answer is always the dogma.
 
Rev. Joseph Pohle in God, the Author of the Natural and Supernatural uses the term “rule of faith” as a synonym for dogma, for example, when he says:

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It is a rule of faith, by which we believe that there is but one God, nor any other beside the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing. For the sources of their teaching the Fathers point to Apostolic Tradition and the Mosaic narrative. Thus St. Athanasius teaches: “God created all things, which previously did not exist, through the Logos out of nothing, so that they received being, as He speaks through the mouth of Moses: ‘In the beginning God created heaven and earth.’”

He even cites the Church council that uses the term “Rule of Faith” as a synonym for dogma that was approved by Pope Zosimus.
 

Quote
“Whoever denies that new-born infants should be baptized immediately after birth, or asserts that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins, but do not contract from Adam original sin, which must be expiated in the waters of regeneration, and that consequently the baptismal form for the remission of sins applies to them not truly, but falsely; let him be anathema.” The Council bases this definition on Rom. V, 12 sqq., and on ecclesiastical Tradition, and concludes: "Propter hanc enim regulam ndei etiam parvuli, qui nihil peccatorum in semetipsis adhuc committere potuerunt, ideo in peccatorum remissionem veraciter baptizantur ut in eis regeneratione mundetur, quod generatione traxerunt. According to this rule of faith little children, who are as yet unable to commit actual sin, are therefore truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that by regeneration they may be cleansed of that which they have contracted by generation."
Second Council of Mileve (416); its canons were taken over by a plenary council held at Carthage in 418, and approved and promulgated by Pope Zosimus in his Epistola Tractoria.

St. Thomas says:

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The formal object of faith is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the Church’s teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible and Divine rule to the Church’s teaching, which proceeds from the Church’s truth manifested in Holy Scripture, such an one has not the habit of faith, but holds the truths of faith not by faith but by some other principle" (II-II, Q. v, a. 3).

The Church’s teaching (Magisterium) is the means to produce the “infallible and Divine rule to the Church’s teaching” (Dogma).  Dogma and Scripture are both called “the formal object of faith.” Both are Divine Revelation. Scripture is “first,” that is the remote rule of faith. Dogma is the proximate rule of faith.
 
When you fail to make the distinction between the means and the ends you cause the same confusion in the minds of the faithful that Cantarella made by calling the "living magerterium the rule of faith," that is, that the rule of faith can continually develop and evolve through the “living magisterium.” Furthermore, since the pope is the means by which the “living magisterium” speaks, this is nothing more than a synonym for calling the pope the rule of faith.

Only those who faithfully hold dogma as the proximate rule of faith can avoid the errors of sedeprivationism that destroys the office by dividing its form and the matter, and sedevacantism that discards the office entirely.


Drew

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2018, 09:17:24 PM »
Your definition is present tense and makes the history of the Church meaningless.  ALL magisteriums matter- past, present and future.  The past magisteriums are dead - what is left?  Doctrine.  What is the Creed, but belief in God and TRUTHS?  What’s another word for Truth, but doctrine?  

Your overemphasis on the papacy is not catholic.  Yes, he is our authority on earth, just like St Peter was head of the Apostles but lest we forget, St Peter didn’t start the Church or invent the Truths of our Faith - Christ did.  Which means that Truth/doctrine exists OUTSIDE and BEFORE the papacy.  Ergo, the magisterium/pope is not the end-all-be-all, but Christ is, who is Truth itself.  And St Paul and St John did a heck of a lot more explaining of the Faith than St Peter did, at least what was written down.  

We must obey the papacy, yes.  We must believe what Christ taught as doctrine, yes.  Normally these do not conflict, but if they do, we fall back to the source, which is Christ and PREVIOUS ORTHODOX teachings.  The pope can fail, as Christ said to St Peter “Get behind me, Satan.”  This is not scandalous, it was expected to happen, which is why Christ gave the Church infallibility, so that future, bad popes would be bound by PREVIOUS ORTHODOXY and prevented from leading His sheep into error.  

Truth (doctrine) is authority.  Authority (magisterium) is not Truth.  


Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2018, 11:41:16 PM »
And:
-Contrary to the teaching of the Church: There is no hierarchy whatsoever.  (It is de fide that the hierarchy must be perpetual.)  Therefore, Catholics must reject sedevacantism.
This is a strawman.  Sedevacantism doesn't posit the complete loss of the hierarchy.  SVs are all over the map on this particular point.  1. Some say there must be an ordinary hidden somewhere (Bishop in the woods theory) - John Lane claims this among many others.  2. Some say all the sees are vacant - Fr. Cekada proposed this on Ignis Ardens in 2012.  It is possible. The hierarchy consists of all clerics and even a man who has received first tonsure is a cleric.  So as long as there is at least one Catholic bishop (even if not an ordinary), the hierarchy is intact and retains all the powers of order and jurisdiction even if jurisdiction is not being exercised in any particular see.  3. Sede privationist theory  4. Siri theory - Cardinal Siri was the true pope elected in 1958.  5. Home alone theory and Apocalypse theory - we are in the end times.  There might be other positions as well.  But they are generally lumped in with the sv position.  Basically, sv is a catchall for everyone who rejects the idea that Conciliar bosses are the true hierarchy of the Catholic Church.  With the possible exception of position #5, sedes are not positing the destruction of the hierarchy.  And those who hold #5 are very small in number.  So I consider the argument a strawman.  Also, I have never heard of a sede privationist attacking sedevacantists.  So Fr Chazal and Fr. Ringrose have an ambiguous position.  It certainly looks like SP but they are trying to distance themselves from other SPs and they give no reason for that.  We could speculate that  they do this for political reasons (because SP would be unpalatable to many former SSPX people which is the demographic that they are trying to serve).

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2018, 08:04:47 AM »
Quote
What is being argued here is simply the foundation that the Rule of Faith for Catholics is what is taught by the Pope and the Apostolic succession of Bishops in union with him acting as protectors of the Deposit of Faith.

Cantarella,
Your quote above perfectly agrees with my view.  It shows the job of the magisterium as protectors of the Deposit of Faith (which Drew refers to as 'doctrine' because doctrine is just the re-teaching and clarifying of what Christ taught the Apostles).

This whole argument about 'rule of faith' or 'proximate' vs 'remote' is confusing and THAT is what is causing the disagreement, in my opinion.  The only point I'm trying to make is that the Deposit of Faith came before the Church, since Christ's teachings existed before the Church was founded, since Christ taught the Apostles everything before He ascended into heaven and the Church wasn't officially started until 10 days later at Pentecost.  So, which came first, the teachings of the Church or the Church?  The teachings.  What is the role of the magisterium?  To protect and re-teach those teachings.  Thus, the foundation of the Church are its teachings (i.e. doctrine).  Therefore, what is more important, what is being protected, or the protector?  Obviously, what is being protected is more important, therefore doctrine is more important than the magisterium.

My view is not an attack on the papacy, but just a moderation of the over-adulation and semi-worship we've experienced regarding the papacy since the 60s, when radio and tv came on the scene.  Before that, the avg catholic had almost NO interaction with the pope.  Their daily 'authority figure' was their local bishop.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2018, 10:04:05 AM »
Again, you throw around the word 'magisterium' as if it's ALL infallbile and we must accept ALL of it, no ifs, ands or buts.  This is a gross generalization.  If you would distinguish between the fallible and infallible parts of the magisterium, then you would see that I'm not rejecting the papacy, or maginalizing the idea of the magisterium, but only separating the fallible vs infallible, just as sedeprivationism separates the material from the spiritual office of the pope.

Previous INFALLIBLE magisteriums declared it a dogma that 'outside the church there is no salvation'.  The V2 magisteriums FALLIBLY "seems" to contradict these doctrines.  Therefore, the V2 magisteriums are wrong (and by extension, Pope Francis is wrong), for they contradict doctrine and scripture.  Ergo, this is an example where doctrine supercedes the papacy.