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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 442448 times)

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #765 on: April 24, 2018, 01:52:21 PM »
The Immaculate Conception has been a feast of the Church on December 8th for Centuries, since WAY before it was defined in the 1800s.  It has been an IMPLICIT part of the Faith since Apostolic times.  St Thomas Aquinas never denied this truth; he never denied that Our Lady had a special grace, or that She was sinless from birth.  What was being debated was when conception occurred and when the soul was infused, which St Thomas thought was AFTER the physical cells had formed.  The Church, by defining this dogma, clarified in a sense, (and in advance of the age of abortion) that life began at conception.  Before that time, scientists debated when life actually happened.
Indeed it has. But since it had not been defined by the infallible Magisterium, St. Thomas was not a heretic for his false beliefs. And yet someone with the same beliefs today would be. Showing that Magisterium is the rule of faith. 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #766 on: April 24, 2018, 02:25:40 PM »
The distinction you are not making is that the Church issues dogmas to CLARIFY the truths that have been around since the beginning.  It's not accurate to say that these truths could be denied in the past; it is only accurate to say they were not believed IN THE SAME LEVEL OF DETAIL that they are required to be now.

The protestants like to accuse the pope of issuing "new" dogmas.  Of course, the pope does not have the power to do so, nor does he actually do so, because the Church has TRADITION, which the Protestants reject.  ALL TRUTHS of the Faith have been around since Apostolic times.  It is only after the Apostles that the Church CLARIFIES and adds DETAILS to such Truths, as necessary, (usually when they come under attack from heretics).  But ALL TRUTHS have been around, and must be believed implicitly as part of our Faith.


Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #767 on: April 24, 2018, 02:56:46 PM »
The distinction you are not making is that the Church issues dogmas to CLARIFY the truths that have been around since the beginning.  It's not accurate to say that these truths could be denied in the past; it is only accurate to say they were not believed IN THE SAME LEVEL OF DETAIL that they are required to be now.

The protestants like to accuse the pope of issuing "new" dogmas.  Of course, the pope does not have the power to do so, nor does he actually do so, because the Church has TRADITION, which the Protestants reject.  ALL TRUTHS of the Faith have been around since Apostolic times.  It is only after the Apostles that the Church CLARIFIES and adds DETAILS to such Truths, as necessary, (usually when they come under attack from heretics).  But ALL TRUTHS have been around, and must be believed implicitly as part of our Faith.
Exactly. The truths have always been around. And yet St. Thomas was not a heretic for believing contrary to certain truths of the faith, as said truths had not been dogmatically defined by the Magisterium. But if one were to deny the Immaculate Conception now, they would be a heretic. The Immaculate Conception was just as true in St. Thomas' time as it is now, but if the Magisterium does not teach something then we are not heretics for not believing in that thing. Ergo the Magisterium is the rule of faith. 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #768 on: April 24, 2018, 02:58:32 PM »
Nice try, but the Immaculate Conception was defined ex cathedra.

Now please address the issue instead of dodging it. What was it, if not the defining of the dogma ex cathedra(i.e by the Extraordinary Magisterium), that made St. Thomas not a heretic but someone who denies the same truth today a heretic?
The dogma was defined, not invented. The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady always was one of the doctrines of the Church, it was never some new idea, some new concoction or pious innovation that the pope in union with all the bishops of the world decided to make a dogma. But that is how you and Cantarella and Lad preach the whole process works. Ridiculous!

Yes, all the bishops and cardinals petitioned the pope that it was finally time to actually solemnly define it, but it was already something the Church always and everywhere taught since the time of the Apostles. This is what it says in Ineffabilis Deus.

This doctrine was always taught and believed because this doctrine was and will always remain in the ordinary and universal magisterium - were it otherwise, it could not have been solemnly defined. Do you understand this?

This means that the certainty we have of the Immaculate Conception of Our Blessed Mother, whether defined ex cathedra or not, was, is and will forever be, among those teachings included in "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world," i.e. the ordinary and universal magisterium.

The Immaculate Conception was always one of those "points of doctrine" that Pope Pius IX taught in Tuas Libenter when he said we must submit ourselves to "points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure."

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #769 on: April 24, 2018, 03:27:49 PM »
Can someone deny that Adam and Eve were our first parents?  Can we deny that St Joseph was Our Lord's foster father?  Of course not.  These are CONSTANT teachings, which means they are part of Tradition, which means they are part of the INFALLIBLE (non-solemn) universal magisterium.  (It is universal, because it's been believed 'everywhere, always and by all').  The immaculate conception has always been part of Tradition; the details of the denial would determine the scope of the error.  I don't know how the Church handled such cases in the past.  Would someone who denied the immaculate conception outright have been a heretic?  Yes, objectively speaking.  Because he would've denied an article of the faith, which had been part of the Church's law of prayer and part of the liturgy.

The law of prayer determines the law of belief.