Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 441654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline drew

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1050 on: May 14, 2018, 09:23:43 AM »
The English translation of the end of the tenth Chapter of Bellarmine's De Ecclesia Militante is as follows:

He is responding to this argument:

His response is:

I do not think that the hypothetical pagan here pretending to be Catholic is necessarily unbaptized. If he is pretending and professing the Faith externally, he must have been sacramentally baptized, most likely. If he is receiving the Sacraments and externally  "professing" the Faith, then he must have already been baptized. I think this is more a case of a pagan who is baptized as an adult and seems to be a Catholic only externally and publicly, but internally he rejects the Faith. He is a false convert. An occult heretic or secret infidel, who is still considered a member of the Church.


Cantarella,

But what does St. Robert mean by this quote?  Can the pope be like the non-baptized fake who pretends to be Catholic and if accepted by the Catholic community as Catholic is therefore a member of the Church?  You cannot or will not even accept Msgr. Fenton’s understanding and reporting of this fact.  There have been rare occasions in which I have not agreed with Msgr. Fenton’s conclusions but I have never thought that he did not properly report facts, or try to do so in a manner that forced unsupported conclusions.

St. Robert has his speculative opinions on the question of a heretical pope and so do lots of others.  You are free to speculate on any of these questions that are not determined and settled by the Church, but you are not free to speculate or take practical measures that contradict determined and settled questions.  Determined and settled questions are called Dogmas.  S&Sers do not follow this rule.

Unless you have something new to add there is no point in continuing this exchange.  I have received through private emails at CathInfo and through direct contacts to Mission chapel in York, PA nearly two dozen communications that have expressed their appreciation for addressing these questions covered in this thread.  If the discussion has been no benefit to you I am grateful that they have benefitted others.

I believe you are committing a grave error and you have the same opinion of me.  If you are correct, the implications of my error are simply personal because S&S is admittedly a dead end going nowhere.  If I am correct, the implications of your error are not just personal but extend to the heart of the possibility of bringing about any corrective measure.  If the Resistance cannot be structured in the defense of Dogma, it is not going anywhere either.

We both cannot be right.  The truth will reveal itself in time.  We shall see.

Drew 



Offline drew

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1051 on: May 14, 2018, 03:24:02 PM »
You're the one who need to shut up ... and stop promoting heresy.

Ladislaus,

Heresy is the rejection of dogma as the rule of faith.  Since you have already done that, the problem of heresy is your own.  Without Dogma, you cannot know even what a heresy is.  But then again, you denied the definition of supernatural faith.  Maybe the problem is yet more fundamental.

Drew


Offline drew

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1052 on: May 14, 2018, 03:26:36 PM »
It means what it says. It is when the heresy becomes manifest, public, when the heretic loses Authority and Jurisdiction in the Church. An ecclesiastical declaration would be necessary at this point just to make the fact known to the faithful. It is different if the heresy is occult or private. Bellarmine says private heretics, even if it is the Sovereign Pontiff himself, "do not lose Jurisdiction, nor dignity, nor the name of the head of the Church, until he either separates himself publicly form the Church or being convicted of heresy is separated against his will". But this is in the case of secret heretics, who continue to have Jurisdiction.

"For this reason a heretical Bishop to the extent that he began to preach heresy, could bind and loose no one, although without a doubt if he had already conceived the error, were it before he began to preach publicly, he could still bind and loose".

Bellarmine is not the only one who teaches this.  Secret heretics can still have Authority in the Church. Public heretics cannot because they are not inside the Church.

The proposition of "Francis is a manifest heretic but he still retains Authority or Jurisdiction in the Church" is therefore, indefensible.

Canterella,

You will not accept what Msgr. Fenton writes regarding St. Robert Bellarmine’s opinion that a non-baptized fake pretending to be a Catholic, and therefore accepted by the Catholic community as a Catholic, would therefore be a member of the Church. Why try to brush it over?  If St. Robert is correct in this opinion, why cannot it apply to a pope?

St. Robert also believed in the “soul” vs “body” membership in the Church that was elaborated upon by Fr. Jean Bainvel, S.J.  Even Msgr. Fenton said that this opinion of St. Robert was incompatible with Leo XIII, Divinum Illud, that taught that the ‘Holy Spirit is the Soul of the Church.’  You have in the past rejected St. Robert’s opinion on this question that soul membership was all that was necessary for salvation without the reception of any sacrament.  Why has St. Robert become the only acceptable opinion on the question of a heretical pope and the loss of office?  In the end, you are picking and choosing to accept no authority beyond yourself and reject any reasoned arguments to the contrary. 

All you are offering is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine and affirming it as if it were dogma.  It is not.  The opinion that a pope who is manifest heretic loses jurisdiction without any declaration whatsoever by any authority in the Church, or rather by every “authority” in the Church, is nothing but an opinion that would lead, as John of St. Thomas said, to chaos. 

You admit that an occult heretic, as St. Robert opines, would not lose jurisdiction.  Therefore, it is not the heresy per se but the welfare of the faithful that is the determining element to remove any heretic materially from the Church.  The material separation from the Church is a matter of law and not a matter of doctrine. 

As said before you are free to speculate in on any matter that is not a determined and settled question but you are not free to speculate and make practical judgments that overthrow determined and settled questions.  Determined and settled questions are Dogmas.

It is only through Dogma as the proximate rule of faith that anyone whatsoever can be charged with heresy.  If Dogma is not the rule of faith, there is no such thing as heresy.  Without the restoration of Dogma as the rule of faith there is no possible way to mount any effective resistance because truth is the only weapon against the abuse of authority.  The S&Sers deny Dogma as the rule of faith because they themselves end up in a position that is incompatible with Dogma.  The final end is they are no better off than the pope they are throwing out of office.

Drew


Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1053 on: May 14, 2018, 08:44:33 PM »
Long quote, scroll down to read the whole thing.


The Dublin Review, Vol. 14, January -- April, New Edition, 1870, pgs. 241 - 244

https://archive.org/details/dublinreview17wisegoog


Quote
THE publication of this collection of S. Alphonsus de Liguori's various treatises on the Pope and on General Councils is most opportune.  While all eyes are turned towards Rome, it is well that the clergy and educated laity should thus be enabled to learn, what one so high in esteem for sanctity and learning as S. Alphonsus thought on these subjects. It is a happy coincidence, too, that this volume should have appeared in the same language and at the same time as the Pastoral Letter of the Bishop of Orleans.

That letter came from one so greatly admired for his eloquence and zeal that it made much more impression on men's minds than its contents alone  could account for ; especially among the laity, who have never given a  special study to the questions of which it treats. Among some few an impression actually exists, that the illustrious French Bishop has defended the cause of moderation and of the ancient traditions of the Church against,  as it is maintained, the extreme theories of a few theologians and the hasty speculations of some intemperate laymen.

We recommend those who have received this impression to purchase and read attentively the volume before us.

In the excellent Introduction which has been prefixed to his translation  by P. Jacques, they will find in what esteem S. Alphonsus and his writings are held by the Church. To quote but one passage from the bull of his canonization, having reference to the very treatises which compose this volume, Gregory XVI. has said : " (The Saint) wrote many books for the maintenance of the rights of this Apostolic See ; in them we admire an extraordinary vigour of argument, a vast and varied learning, singular proofs of his solicitude for the Church, and a rare zeal for religion." Passing to the writings of the Saint thus solemnly praised, the reader will find that S. Alphonsus maintains, with all the erudition of a doctor and the earnestness of a saint, propositions exactly contrary to those of the Bishop of Orleans. The latter, although he professes not to discuss in any way the infallibility of the Pope but only the opportuneness of its definition, yet continually assumes that hitherto it is not held generally in the Church. He speaks as if the definition would introduce a new rule of faith,  S. Alphonsus, on the contrary, maintains with Suavez and Bellarmin that the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope is proxima fidei closely allied to what is of faith ; that it is the ancient and almost universally received rule of faith, based on Scripture and tradition ; and though not yet expressly defined as of faith, that it is expressly taught by Sovereign Pontiffs and by General Councils.

Alexander VIII. had condemned the following proposition: " The assertion of the authority of the Roman Pontiff above a General Council, and of his infallibility in defining questions of faith, is vain, and has been often refuted." S. Alphonsus concludes the dissertation which he has written against this proposition, by saying that the doctrine of the Pope's infallibility is the belief and practical rule of the whole Church : totius Ecclesiae sententiam, regulam et sensum.

The Bishop of Orleans says, that since all Catholics are agreed that the Church is infallible, and this belief has been sufficient for eighteen centuries, it is inopportune and productive of great evils to raise the question as to the exact seat of infallibility ; that " at the very statement of the problem, the devil is on the alert, the faithful are troubled, the East is arrested in its approach, Protestants are driven back, governments become uneasy, the saddest pages of history are again brought to view, bishops are grieved, the peace of souls is compromised, and the road of salvation made more difficult" (§xvi.).

S. Alphonsus thought very differently. "Febronius," he writes, " pretends that the supreme authority which we ascribe to the Pope keeps heretics from joining the Church. He is mistaken. It is not the doctrine regarding the Pope, but hatred of restraint, sensual delights, the love of riches, and pride, which keep them separated from the Church. They make  no more account of the authority of Councils, in which Febronius places the supreme power, than they do of that of the Popes."

So far was the Saint from thinking it inopportune to raise the question of the exact seat of infallibility, that he has written no less than three treatises to prove the infallibility of the Pope and his superiority to General Councils, and has been praised for doing so by the Holy See. He goes out of the way to treat of these questions even in his moral theology. The ecclesiastical censor at Naples thought it inopportune to publish such matters : but the Saint answered : " You may change, if you like, certain reflections .... but if it is a question regarding the supreme authority of the Pope, then no. I am ready to give my life in its defence. Take away this supreme power, and I do not fear to say that the authority of the Church is annihilated."

The Bishop of Orleans at great length endeavours to show the almost inextricable difficulties which will arise, both as regards the past and the future, if the rule of faith is placed in the infallibility of the Pope. S. Alphonsus, on the other hand, sees no issue out of the historical difficulties of the past, and no practical rule for the future, for those who reject this infallibility. He does not see how any Council can be certainly known to have been ecuмenical, or to have fulfilled the conditions which even Galileans require in order that the definitions of an Ecuмenical Council may be infallible, except from the infallible judgment and approbation of the Pope ; so that, to use his own words, "even the adversaries of the Pope's infallibility cannot find complete assurance in matters of faith without coming in a last analysis, by one road or another, to acknowledge in the Pope a supreme and infallible authority" ("Du Pape," &c., p. 71).

Again, the Bishop of Orleans says that if the infallibility of the Pope is admitted, the faithful will never be able to understand that the bishops are in any true sense judges of the faith; but "the fact is," answers S. Alphonsus, " that the supreme power, which before the Council resided entirely and exclusively in the Pope, in the Council extends also to the bishops, and is shared by them ; so that they can say in all truth in the definitions pronounced unanimously by the Pope and Council, Visum est Spiritui Sancto et nobis " {ib, p. 75).

Neither does it follow, as the Bishop of Orleans insists, that General Councils will be esteemed useless if the infallibility of the Pope is admitted. As this is the most speccious part of his lordship's letter, it may be well to set down the objection as he stated it, and the answer supplied by S. Alphonsus.

" Councils," says Mgr. Dupanleup, " have, up to the present time, been one of the great forms of the Church's life, one of its most powerful means of action. They began in the very origin of the Church in Apostolic times ; they have been known to every century of Christianity except the last two."

Then, after stating his desire and hope that they may in future become  periodical, he continues : —

"But, if the Council should define the infallibility of the Pope, might not the faithful think and say : — 'What use in future will there be in Ecuмenical Councils? Since the Pope alone, apart from the bishops, can decide infallibly on questions of faith, why call together the bishops? Why undergo the delays, the researches, the discussions of Councils ?'

"Thus, then, it is wished that the Council shall make a decree which in future would either put an end to Councils, or at least diminish their  number and importance ! It is wished that the bishops should decree, so to say, their own abdication " (§ xii).

First, then, S. Alphonsus also reviews past ages, and concludes that Councils neither were nor could be the regular means of defining controversies : —

"If God had not appointed," he says, " that the definitions of the Popes  should be infallible, but had willed that questions of faith should be  decided in General Councils, he would not have made sufficient provision for the good of the Church ; for, considering the numerous difficulties which stand in the way of convoking general Councils, the Church would have been deprived, during the greater number of centuries, of an infallible judge, capable of applying a prompt remedy to the schisms and heresies which may ever be arising.

"As a matter of fact, the constant practice of the Church proves that heresies have been condemned by the Sovereign Pontiffs alone ; and when  the definition of the Pope has been pronounced, Councils have only been  assembled when it could be done conveniently, and when it was considered useful to convoke them in order to extinguish more completely the fire of some heresy that was spreading " (p. 106).

As to the objection, that the infallibility of the Pope makes Councils useless, S. Alphonsus says : —

"No ; though the Pope is infallible, yet Councils are not useless. On the contrary, they are useful in many respects.

1st. In order that the people may receive more readily the decrees which have been unanimously drawn up.

2ndly. That the Bishops may have a more perfect knowledge of the doctrines discussed, and of the reasons on which the decrees are based, and that thus they may be better able to instruct the faithful with regard to them.

3rdly. They are useful to close the mouths of those who resist the definitions of the Pope.

4thly. They are useful for the better examination of certain points not yet defined nor sufficiently discussed. Though it must be well understood that to have authority the definitions of Councils must be confirmed by the Pope, seeing that they derive all their force
from this confirmation" (p. 168).

With regard to this latter point the Saint adds, in another place :—

" Sometimes the Sovereign Pontiffs convoke Councils in order that they may be more enlightened by the Holy Ghost by means of the discussions carried on in the Council on some doubt in matter of faith ; for, as Cardinal du Perron says, the infallibility of the Pope does not consist in his always receiving at once from the Holy Ghost the necessary light to decide questions of faith, but in his deciding without error in matters in which he feels himself to be sufficiently enlightened by God, while he sends other questions, on which he does not feel himself sufficiently enlightened, to be decided by the Council, in order that afterwards he may pronounce his own judgment " (p. 346).

These passages will, we think, show the importance as well as the opportuneness of the republication. It is only necessary to add that the translation seems both accurately and elegantly made, that it is enriched with judicious and learned notes, and that the original Latin of three out of the five treatises which compose the volume, is given in an Appendix.


Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1054 on: May 14, 2018, 09:35:32 PM »
Does anyone have more of Cardinal Billot?

http://www.mostholytrinityseminary.org/CASSICIAcuм%20THESIS-Lucien.pdf



Quote
“At the minimum one should firmly hold as absolutely unshakable and beyond all doubt the opinion that the adherence of the universal Church is always for her the one infallible sign of the legitimacy of the person of the Pontiff,  and  hence  the  existence  of  all  the  conditions  required  for  this legitimacy.  And  one  does  not  have  to search far and wide to find reasons for this. It derives directly from the infallible promise and providence of Christ: The Gates of hell shall not prevail against her, and again, I shall be with you till the end of days. In point of fact, it would be one and the same thing for the Church to adhere to a false pope as it would be for her to follow a false rule of faith, because the Pope is the living rule of faith which the Church is obliged to follow in believing, and certainly this is always the case, as will appear most clearly from what we say below. God can certainly permit that on occasion the vacancy of the Holy See should persist for a long time. He can also permit that a doubt could arise about the legitimacy of a given person who was elected. But He cannot allow that the entire Church would accept as a true Pontiff one who is not truly and legitimately such.” (“De Ecclesia Christi,”Rome, 5th edition, p. 635).