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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 26165 times)

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2020, 10:15:34 AM »
This is a very theologically imprecise statement and is the root of your errors. You need to do more research about +Bellarmine.  "Manifest heresy" does not mean what you think it does.  It is a canon law term; it does not mean that some "sounds/acts like a heretic".  "Manifest" in this case, does not mean what the dictionary says it means.  It implies perniciousness and other legal aspects.
.+Bellarmine used the term "manifest" before the material/formal designations were invented.  Over the centuries, various theologians have used all kinds of words to describe the MULTIPLE levels of error, schism and heresy.  You can't just pick a term and use it out-of-context.  If you want to use the term "manifest heresy" correctly, you need to research when and how it was used and then correlate that to when/how the modern terms are used (i.e. material/formal).  That's assuming you want to have an intellectually accurate conversation.  As it is now, you are just using a term haphazardly, and incorrectly.  It's lazy, theologically wrong and (since you're using the term to condemn others) it's uncharitable.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Struthio cannot do this or that, because Pax Vobis said so  :fryingpan:
Struthio has to do more research, because Pax Vobis said so :fryingpan:


+Bellarmine used the term "manifest" before the material/formal designations were invented.

You got a big mouth and haven't done any research yourself!

Quote from: St Robert
Neque cuм liber definitur haereticus, definitur eo ipso quod
auctor fuerit formaliter haereticus: poluit enim imprudenter errare.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Viganò naturalist, Americanist?
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2020, 10:35:34 AM »
Do you deny that "a fervent Pro-Lifer together" or "the most ardent abortionist" can lack the supernatural virtue of faith?

Uhm, I have been classified as a Feeneyite, and have long advocated the dogma that supernatural faith is required or salvation.  This does not mean that in the natural world there are no distinctions to be made between the good and the bad.  In fact, it is precisely the monolithic view of hell which would have Joe Stalin suffering the same fate right next to a devout Protestant mother who gave her life to save her children, that leads to the distaste for EENS.  But God rewards natural virtue and punishes natural vice with proportional natural (temporal) punishments.  Similarly, natural virtue can lead one on the trajectory towards receiving and accepting the grace of faith.  That is why St. Augustine spoke of those inside who did not belong to the Church and those on the outside who did, meaning that some who are Catholic will be lost, and some who are not Catholic are part of the elect and will (eventually) be saved.  It is not wrong to speak of a NATURAL division between good and bad in the world.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2020, 10:40:11 AM »

A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic. The point is: I should act as if he was one.

What???  A "manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic"?  That's a self-contradictory proposition.  Please take a Logic 101 class and check back in with us.  If you find a particular OPINION or POSITION to be erroneous, then by all means, reject the position, but otherwise you may certainly not act as if he were one.  It is not for you to arrogate unto yourself the authority to determine who is and is not a Catholic.  So if you were a priest, you'd consider yourself entitled to refuse Vigano communion if he came to receive?  And "manifest" to whom?  To you?  It's manifest to YOU that he's a heretic, but it's not manifest to most Catholics.  So he loses membership in the Church based on your own private judgment, however insane and unhinged it might be?

It sounds like you're using the term "manifest heretic" as meaning someone who is suspect of heresy.  That is not how St. Robert Bellarmine used the term, since he declared that manifest heretics lose membership in the Church.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2020, 11:36:34 AM »
Father Jenkins calls the letter "earth-shattering".


Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2020, 11:46:55 AM »
What???  A "manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic"?  That's a self-contradictory proposition.  Please take a Logic 101 class and check back in with us.  If you find a particular OPINION or POSITION to be erroneous, then by all means, reject the position, but otherwise you may certainly not act as if he were one.  It is not for you to arrogate unto yourself the authority to determine who is and is not a Catholic.  So if you were a priest, you'd consider yourself entitled to refuse Vigano communion if he came to receive?  And "manifest" to whom?  To you?  It's manifest to YOU that he's a heretic, but it's not manifest to most Catholics.  So he loses membership in the Church based on your own private judgment, however insane and unhinged it might be?

It sounds like you're using the term "manifest heretic" as meaning someone who is suspect of heresy.  That is not how St. Robert Bellarmine used the term, since he declared that manifest heretics lose membership in the Church.

Your comment shows that you either didn't understand the quote I have posted, or you didn't read it at all. It starts with

Quote
For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one

and it ends with

Quote
they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.

I suggest that you go back to my post, read it again, think about it, and then post a new comment.