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Author Topic: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX  (Read 54400 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
« Reply #225 on: November 16, 2019, 09:28:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 16, 2019, 06:38:57 PM
    Not at all.

    I won't judge anyone personally, since I am not privy to the context or to the prudential judgments you have made with regard to you family and your children, of which you are the head.  I'm merely about understanding the principles.  Their application to your situation is between you, God, and your confessor.

    Also, I believe that any caveats can be outweighed by a proportionate reason.  I do not object to this type of activity with a view towards the girls being able to defend themselves and their children.  There would, however, be no proportionate reason to allow a girl to play football that I can imagine.
    Crime rates and morality being what they are, nobody is safe anywhere.

    I too cannot envision an excuse for females playing football.

    I am surprised that this discussion is so heated.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #226 on: November 17, 2019, 12:22:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 14, 2019, 04:21:20 PM
    It appears that the girls were out in public, in this picture, but I do not consider playing in an arena where the scheduled event states that it's a girls' match ... to be public.  You have to buy a ticket to get in.  And the events are not viewable to someone who hasn't entered the arena of his own accord.  Secondly, the degree of immodesty here is something might even be tolerable at Mass. These uniforms are not even close to being gravely immodest.  Even if these girls walked out to the grocery store like this, truly in public, I would consider it a venial violation of modesty at the most.  But with regard to a sport that is clearly billed as a girls' sporting event, I consider this acceptable. Now, if they were wearing those so-called "spanks" which have their butt cheeks hanging out and leaving little to the imagination, yeah, that would be in appropriate even in the relatively closed venue.  But, really?  These uniforms are just not that bad.  What, because someone can catch a glimpse of knee when they're standing up.  Even that is mitigated by the fact that they are wearing knee pads.

    Now, the coach in the picture appears to have an inappropriate skirt on ... without any whatsoever reason to do so.  Now, THAT is a bad example to the girls on the team for sure.  Now, I can see it being a problem if the players' skirts were too long over the knee.  If they were to go down on their knees, the skirt could actually get caught between the floor and their knee and they could be injured.

    I bet that their competition was very badly dressed, and the fact that they beat them sends a message that you don't need to dress like that to be competitive.  I think that the excuse for the immodesty in dress is the competitive advantage to be gained from it ... although for girls it's usually an excuse to practice exhibitionism.

    This thread has gone into minute details and turned into a food fight over minute details and in the end it is impossible for a reader to know what Ladislaus really believes and practices. This has become kind of like a debate on EENS between SJ and Ladislaus, except in this case it is reversed, in EENS we know exactly where Ladislaus stands, he believes it exactly as the dogmas are written, while we do not know what SJ believes because it is impossible to know what a person who calls others Feeneyites, really believes. In the end they don't even know what they believe. So, in this posting I'd like to pin down the important points with what I have read that Ladislaus has written, to get closer to understand what he has said he believes. I hope this analogy of Strict EENS vs People who call others Feeneyites strikes a cord with you Ladislaus and will bring you to just say clearly what you believe, for you sound just like the people who call others Feeneyites, you seem to be embarrased to fully reveal what you believe. I've never seen this in you before.


    The subject that started this of this discussion and is the subject of this thread is this girls volleyball teams outfits and the above was Ladislaus conclusion on the matter. I responded to that conclusion at length and even started a new thread based on his conclusion here: https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/sspx-daughters-being-lost-to-the-world-1960s-all-over-again/ it is entitled "SSPX Trad Daughters Being Lost to the World, 1960’s All Over Again", therefore I will not repeat myself here.

    Questions for Ladislaus

    Ladislaus concludes that: "These uniforms are not even close to being gravely immodest.  Even if these girls walked out to the grocery store like this....These uniforms are just not that bad....might even be tolerable at Mass". You had been told  quite a few times that the girls are jumping around and diving to get balls, and that the upper thighs are constantly being exposed, and yet you still consider these outfits to be appropriate?

    Do you still consider this "excuse" to still hold after all the responses you've gotten:  "It appears that the girls were out in public, in this picture, but I do not consider playing in an arena where the scheduled event states that it's a girls' match ... to be public."?

    Pax Vobis rightly stated that the girls can't play and the parents can't attend matches against other teams because the other teams are basically in their underwear, naked. Do you agree with that?

    SJ and others said that girls can't take part in the competitive sport of volleyball (to be precise) and I defined a team sport with examples quite a few times, as a sporting activity where a school has a team that practices together all week to play against other school teams? You said it was OK to play competitive team volleyball at first, but I believe later you changed your mind? If the opposing team was a trad school that wore even better outfits than the team of this thread would it be acceptable to you?

    Answering the above would clear up things with everyone, the same as a person who calls another a Feeneyites saying that they limit their belief to the belief in the theory of BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas.

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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #227 on: November 17, 2019, 10:53:06 AM »
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    • The more this thread prattles on, the more it becomes clear that Islam has a leg up on certain CathInfoTradTM.







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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #228 on: November 17, 2019, 11:27:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on November 17, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
    The more this thread prattles on, the more it becomes clear that Islam has a leg up on certain CathInfoTradTM.








    Is that you, Fr. Urrutigoity?
    PS: These Muslims are liberals; women have no business playing soccer.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #229 on: November 17, 2019, 11:27:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on November 17, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
    The more this thread prattles on, the more it becomes clear that Islam has a leg up on certain CathInfoTradTM.








    Bonaventure-
    You forgot to accuse us of prudery and puritanism!
    What would Fr. Urrutigoity say??
    PS: These are obviously liberal Muslims, as women have no business playing soccer.  No point in trying to dress modestly, if they are only going to be turned into lesbians in the end by inculcating manly qualities, at the expense of their femininity.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #230 on: November 17, 2019, 01:32:34 PM »
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    • Ah, so the Muslims playing in burqas are too liberal for Johnson.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #231 on: November 17, 2019, 02:00:07 PM »
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    • #1) I reject the assertion, held by Johnson, that it is not permitted for women to play team sports (provided it's against other women and not violently aggressive ... like football ... and there's no public immodesty).  There's ZERO Church teaching to back this up.  In fact, Pius XI stated that such sport in "public" exhibition could offend modesty.  So, in other  words, the sole considerations is modesty, and not the sport itself.  He implies that it is permitted for them to play in a more private setting.

    #2) With regard to modesty, there are degrees of immodesty, and as is the case with all things venial, if the matter is not intrinsically evil, then a proportionate reason could justify a certain amount of immodesty.  Grave immodesty would require a grave reason.  Let's say a woman has been kidnapped and is being held captive unclothed somewhere.  She escapes and runs out in public without clothing on.  Grave immodesty justified by a grave reason.  So too, venial immodesty, can be justified by a proportionate reason.  The slight immodesty of showing one's knees to be able to properly play a game without risk of injury can be justified.

    To answer LastTrad's questions:

    Please drop the arrogant "you have been told" language.  I have been old nothing.  We do not know how those outfits were designed, how they react to the movements of the game, or what they have underneath.  Yes, if they do fly up to reveal their panties, for instance, then that could rise to the level of being gravely immodest.  But none of us know the details of how this would work.  I am going simply on just what I saw.  If the girls would go out in public, say, to a grocery store, with those outfits, I would consider that venially immodest.  But, assuming it's not the case that it becomes gravely immodest during game play, then there's proportionate reason for them to dress like that.

    If the other teams do dress in a gravely immodest fashion (we do not now what kind of league they play in and what their rules are), then indeed it would be inappropriate for men to attend those games.  Whether or not this would constitute a near occasion of sin for them, it would still be scandalous for a man to watch such displays, and therefore inappropriate and at least venially sinful (depending on the degree of scandal given).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #232 on: November 17, 2019, 02:07:23 PM »
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    • My biggest problem is with the haughty, self-righteous, Pharisaical attitude of standing in judgment over everyone ... whether or not you have all the facts or can present a rational argument.  You refuse to entertain distinctions or degrees of sin or proportionate reasons.  You pretend that moral theology is binary, or at least act like it, that either something is a mortal sin or it's perfect, that there's nothing in between.  You paint moral theology as black-and-white, whereas in actuality it admits of much gray, with prudential considerations being weighed in.  Most of all, you refuse to give anyone of the benefit of the doubt, but immediately stand on your soapbox to denounce these girls as whores ... simply because you can catch a glimpse of knee from their uniforms.

    Trust me, God is much more offended by arrogant judgmental self-righteous Pharisaism than by a glimpse of female knee.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #233 on: November 17, 2019, 03:26:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 17, 2019, 02:07:23 PM
    My biggest problem is with the haughty, self-righteous, Pharisaical attitude of standing in judgment over everyone ... whether or not you have all the facts or can present a rational argument.  You refuse to entertain distinctions or degrees of sin or proportionate reasons.  You pretend that moral theology is binary, or at least act like it, that either something is a mortal sin or it's perfect, that there's nothing in between.  You paint moral theology as black-and-white, whereas in actuality it admits of much gray, with prudential considerations being weighed in.  Most of all, you refuse to give anyone of the benefit of the doubt, but immediately stand on your soapbox to denounce these girls as whores ... simply because you can catch a glimpse of knee from their uniforms.

    Trust me, God is much more offended by arrogant judgmental self-righteous Pharisaism than by a glimpse of female knee.
    Who is "you"? 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #234 on: November 17, 2019, 03:33:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 17, 2019, 02:07:23 PM
    Trust me, God is much more offended by arrogant judgmental self-righteous Pharisaism than by a glimpse of female knee.
    Once again the writer clearly reveals that he does not understand the problem, he still only sees it as a matter of a few inches of cloth "a glimpse of a female knee"
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #235 on: November 17, 2019, 03:41:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on November 16, 2019, 09:28:24 PM
    Crime rates and morality being what they are, nobody is safe anywhere.

    I too cannot envision an excuse for females playing football.

    I am surprised that this discussion is so heated.
    Fitness and recreation? 
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #236 on: November 17, 2019, 04:15:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 17, 2019, 03:33:51 PM
    Once again the writer clearly reveals that he does not understand the problem, he still only sees it as a matter of a few inches of cloth "a glimpse of a female knee"

    No, it's fat knees in culottes, with unrestrained "boobs".

    It drives Johnson wild  :laugh1:
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #237 on: November 17, 2019, 04:18:31 PM »
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    • Goodness, take the burqas off!




    These women are so ugly, they could pass for men.

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #238 on: November 17, 2019, 04:18:43 PM »
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    • Dear Ladislaus,

    Taking into consideration your response today, please asnswer the questions below in red:


    Quote
    It appears that the girls were out in public, in this picture, but I do not consider playing in an arena where the scheduled event states that it's a girls' match ... to be public.  You have to buy a ticket to get in.  And the events are not viewable to someone who hasn't entered the arena of his own accord.  Secondly, the degree of immodesty here is something might even be tolerable at Mass. These uniforms are not even close to being gravely immodest. (would you allow your daughters to wear to similar outfits to mass or the grocery store?) Even if these girls walked out to the grocery store like this, truly in public, I would consider it a venial violation of modesty at the most.  But with regard to a sport that is clearly billed as a girls' sporting event, I consider this acceptable. Now, if they were wearing those so-called "spanks" which have their butt cheeks hanging out and leaving little to the imagination, yeah, that would be in appropriate even in the relatively closed venue.  But, really?  These uniforms are just not that bad.  What, because someone can catch a glimpse of knee when they're standing up.  Even that is mitigated by the fact that they are wearing knee pads.

    Now, the coach in the picture appears to have an inappropriate skirt on ...( I don't see much difference in the lengths between the coach and some of the other girls (except the one next to her), why is the coach dressed inappropiate for you  and not the others?  ) without any whatsoever reason to do so.  Now, THAT is a bad example to the girls on the team for sure.  Now, I can see it being a problem if the players' skirts were too long over the knee.  If they were to go down on their knees, the skirt could actually get caught between the floor and their knee and they could be injured.

    I bet that their competition was very badly dressed, and the fact that they beat them sends a message that you don't need to dress like that to be competitive.  I think that the excuse for the immodesty in dress is the competitive advantage to be gained from it ... although for girls it's usually an excuse to practice exhibitionism.

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #239 on: November 17, 2019, 05:08:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 17, 2019, 04:18:43 PM
    Dear Ladislaus,

    Taking into consideration your response today, please asnswer the questions below in red:


    First of all, it'd do you well to actually post the picture he was referring to and not a different one entirely.

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