Author Topic: Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay (Read 20316 times)

Centroamerica · « **Reply #40 on:** July 07, 2015, 12:39:08 PM »

A quote from the famous Spanish theologian, Fr. Antonio Royo Marín O.P., Teología Moral para Seglares, (classic, famous pre-conciliar text), Tomo II, no. 81, 1st:

Quote from: Fr. antonio Royo Marín O.P.

The consecration of both species (bread and wine),during the sacrifice of the Mass, is required for the lawfulness of the Eucharistic consecration by Divine Law and by ecclesiastical law, the observance of the established rites and ceremonies by the Church.

(...)
By Divine Law, the consecration of both species is required during the sacrifice of Mass.

This is a very serious condition and a failure to fulfill this is a horrendous sacrilege, of the most serious that could be committed. (...) This condition, because it is from Divine Law, cannot be dispensed of by anyone- not even the Pope- not even in cases of extreme or urgent necessity. (cf. cn. 817).
Moreover, the consecration of one matter without the other is valid (...) even if it is done voluntarily and intentionally. Because, in all of the sacraments, when the form of the words of consecration are pronounced on the matter, the sacrament takes place ipso facto (...) It is not even worth arguing if the minister that knowingly intends to consecrate only one species has the intention of offering the Eucharistic sacrifice (...) and, therefore, [if] he doesn't consecrate only the one species (...).

Corollary. Then the consecration of all the bread in a bakery would be a horrendous sacrilege, but it would be valid.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #41 on:** July 07, 2015, 12:42:47 PM »

Quote from: Tom

Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora
The form the Holy Eucharist are the words of Christ and the matter is bread AND wine.

During the Middle Ages, in England (possibly elsewhere), Fr. Adrian Fortescue writes:
So also on Good Friday they insist that the wine is not consecrated, that the priest should not say : " Haec commixtio et consecratio etc."

In the traditional Latin Mass there is no consecration at all on Good Friday because they offer the Mass of the Pre-sanctified.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #42 on:** July 07, 2015, 12:50:29 PM »

Quote from: Tom

Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora

Canon 927 (1983) [817 (1917)] is an invalidating law.

No it isn't. Invalidating laws apply solely to juridic acts. Unlike, say, baptism the Eucharist is not a juridic act.

Juridic acts change the judicial status of the recipient within the Church. An invalidating act is any act that by the nature of the act itself or the actor is intrinsically invalid and can never be valid regardless of circuмstances. The issues are not necessarily related. The canon in question does not permit any exception under any circuмstances whatsoever. This fact is characteristic of invalidation laws only. Any other law, precept, command, injunction, etc., human or divine, does not bind in cases of impossibility or necessity.

Again, we know by divine and Catholic faith that the matter for the Holy Eucharist is bread AND wine. It is not bread OR wine. Our belief in the True Presence is grounded in divine revelation. Any belief in the True Presence that is divorced from divine revelation is superstition. Those who believe that a priest can simply walk into a bakery and say ‘this is my body’ and thereby transubstantiate all the bread in the bakery are simply superstitious. Our faith is not grounded in superstition.

PapalSupremacy · « **Reply #43 on:** July 07, 2015, 01:39:54 PM »

Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora

The form the Holy Eucharist are the words of Christ and the matter is bread AND wine. This truth is of divine and Catholic faith even if you do not believe it.

Of course I believe it. I see you like to throw very serious accusations around lightly.

Quote

It is your theology that believes that the pope can do whatever he wants regarding the sacramental form and matter, and regard the rite of the sacrament as accidental and entirely immaterial to the validity of the sacrament...

So now you are going to tell me what I believe? I see you've already done it twice in this comment alone.
Naturally, I don't believe anything of which you've accused me here.

Quote

As St. Thomas says the senses are deceived, all we rely upon is the divinely revealed truth. That is the ground of my faith but is it not the ground for yours or Bishop Fellay’s. I quote to you DOGMA you reply with drivel.

Will your rash accusations never cease?

Also, an eminent theological manual is not drivel.

Quote

These Catholics have at least a correct sense of the necessity of the proper form, matter, intention, and rite that you seem ignorant or indifferent about.

To answer my own question above, obviously not.

You have been presented with quotes from two theological manuals approved by the Church and written by eminent theologians, which refute your position. There is no more to be said, except an apology on your part to all those you have falsely accused. I can hope for it because I know God can melt even the hardest of hearts.

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #44 on:** July 07, 2015, 01:47:31 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

A quote from the famous Spanish theologian, Fr. Antonio Royo Marín O.P., Teología Moral para Seglares, (classic, famous pre-conciliar text), Tomo II, no. 81, 1st:
Quote from: Fr. antonio Royo Marín O.P.

The consecration of both species (bread and wine),during the sacrifice of the Mass, is required for the lawfulness of the Eucharistic consecration by Divine Law and by ecclesiastical law, the observance of the established rites and ceremonies by the Church.

(...)
By Divine Law, the consecration of both species is required during the sacrifice of Mass.

This is a very serious condition and a failure to fulfill this is a horrendous sacrilege, of the most serious that could be committed. (...) This condition, because it is from Divine Law, cannot be dispensed of by anyone- not even the Pope- not even in cases of extreme or urgent necessity. (cf. cn. 817).
Moreover, the consecration of one matter without the other is valid (...) even if it is done voluntarily and intentionally. Because, in all of the sacraments, when the form of the words of consecration are pronounced on the matter, the sacrament takes place ipso facto (...) It is not even worth arguing if the minister that knowingly intends to consecrate only one species has the intention of offering the Eucharistic sacrifice (...) and, therefore, [if] he doesn't consecrate only the one species (...).

Corollary. Then the consecration of all the bread in a bakery would be a horrendous sacrilege, but it would be valid.

You are quoting from a priest who cannot draw proper conclusions from his own evidence. Did you stop to consider why Fr. Marin has no history of doing anything to oppose the Novus Ordo revolution in the Church? He died in 2005.

Fr. Marin confirms the fact that bread AND wine is the necessary matter of the sacrament. He confirms that this matter is required by both Divine and Ecclesiastical Law. He also confirms that this Divine Law permits no exceptions of any kind under any circuмstances WHATSOEVER. Any and every law, command, precept, injunction, etc., whether Divine or Ecclesiastical, does not bind in cases of impossibility or necessity except invalidating laws.

Fr. Marin did not oppose the Novus Ordo corruption because his theology is part of Novus Ordo problem.